The Prosperity Doctrine

[SavedByGrace3]

"I am not a very good witness if sinners see me being,scourged , sick, broken."

On the other hand, I've gone through 13 heart attacks (since 1992). One happened in morning service at church, and I was back by the next Wednesday night. There have been two Open hearts (still have enough "leg" left for one more), and 16 stents. Only two out of three leaves in my Mitral valve are still operating and 1/3 of my heart is dead.

But I still live a completely normal life for my age, and you couldn't tell the difference between me and any other 70-year old geezer - still working full time with no retirement plans, Picking Bluegrass with the Band, and my income (as a non-degreed Chief engineer) is higher now than it's ever been.

SO how have YOUR "WOF" beliefs been any more successful in producing a good testimony for YOU than my "sick,broken, busted ones" have been for me???

Folks (that know my medical history, which I don't hide) see me as something of a "Miracle" of God's power walking around. I don't object to that one bit, y'all!!!!

(tongue firmly in cheek):
Yes... you are a wonderful and great believer. One of the greatest persons I have met. God should be glad to have you. You really pulled His feet from the fire by enduring all the suffering He has sent you and come out of it on top. A real testament to how great men can be if they want to. All that suffering and yet you still serve Him! Wow...

I do not see God in your testimony. I see you and how faithful and true you have been. I see how powerful you are in your religion and how stalwart you are in your self. You You you...

Sorry... I do not want to hear about how great men are at enduring the suffering the God (sic.) sends their way. I want to hear the story about how God has saved us in every way we can be saved. I want to hear about the mercy and love of God. I want to know that there is a God in heaven who will save, heal, and answer prayers. It really does not help me to know how great and powerful you have been in your religion.

Again... kudos to you for your greatness and power. Good going there.

It does not help me, at all. You do not help me at all.
No offense...
I want to hear about Jesus... not Bob.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Bob you are a great witness for WOF you have been afflicted , and healed 13 times you sound happy in your blessing of music , and serve God in the best way you know how , you have answered your own question! You out of all understand by his stripes I am healed. I think you have confused WOF with the wolves in sheep's clothing out there today.

(tongue still in cheek):
Yes... as I said in my post, Bob is great. I am glad you are seeing the same thing I saw. He is really helping poor God with His testimony of how men can endure suffering for and from God. We should build a shrine to Bob.
He has us all confused.
Hail to Bob.

 

[Yahu]

The great lack that I see within the prosperity doctrine is the lack of understanding regarding suffering. Everything bad is of the devil, and everything good is of God, the adherents believe.

At any time suffering occurs, it does through one of three avenues, and it is through the exercising of our senses that we determine whether the source is the devil, the reaping of sin we've sown, or God Himself.

Unfortunately, for the WOF groups, the only source of suffering to them is the devil, as they refuse to acknowledge that no fasting, casting out, rebuking or use of authority will take away either the consequences of their sin or one of God's divinely appointed times of suffering.

If from God, the intent is often to tear down those things that are not of Him and the building of those things that are. In order to construct on a piece of property, there frequently has to be demolition. This also must take place in the soul of believers.

We should not be focused on proving just how spiritually powerful we are, and through those assertions earn God's reward and blessing. Instead, our focus should be on learning to deny ourselves, take up His cross, and follow Him. WOF, on the other hand, doesn't teach that a believer deny himself/herself, but to spend their walks insisting on entitlements.

I agree 100%.

 

[Yahu]

"I am not a very good witness if sinners see me being,scourged , sick, broken."

Was Job a good witness?

 

[hislegacy]

Was Job a good witness?

Did you read the last chapter of Job? What happened after Job REPENTED.

 

[Simon Peter]

Did you read the last chapter of Job? What happened after Job REPENTED.

Did you read the last chapter of the Bible?

What happens after all the suffering, poverty, sickness, persecution and pain?

We will be prosperous in Heaven in every way.


peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

Did you read the last chapter of Job? What happened after Job REPENTED.

Read it? I have written a commentary on Job.

 

[Yahu]

Did you read the last chapter of the Bible?

What happens after all the suffering, poverty, sickness, persecution and pain?

We will be prosperous in Heaven in every way.

peace,
Simon

That is assuming your not one of the poor, blind and naked ones! It is the overcomers that will be prosperous in Heaven.

 

[Yahu]

So, it can be argued that the present day Prosperity Doctrine is merely a modern form of Baal worship, and the same judgment that happened to the Baal worshippers of Israel, may very well happen to those who subscribe to the Prosperity doctrine.

Baal-gad specifically, ie 'lord of fortune'. There were many Baalim (plural of Baal). They were 'lord of [attribute]'. There were also Baalah (feminine) and Baaloth (fem pl) for example Asherah and Ashtoreth. Baal-gad was all about sowing money to reap money. It was a twisting of a biblical concept to turn it into error and following a god of prosperity instead of Yah.

The golden bull idolatry set up in Israel was the worship of 'godly men'. Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem and Abraham were considered 'white bulls' in Enoch's animal dream prophecy while Jacob and his descendants were sheep in that dream.

 

[Simon Peter]

That is assuming your not one of the poor, blind and naked ones! It is the overcomers that will be prosperous in Heaven.

I thought that went without saying.


peace,
Simon

 

[Alive_Again]

Everything bad is of the devil, and everything good is of God, the adherents believe.

I guess you could say that if it is "bad" then it is not of God. Whether or not we're reaping what we're sowing, living in a fallen world, possibly being oppressed of the devil, or just dealing with our flesh, it's not all "good". We have to deal with bad as the scripture states, whether or not it comes from God, which is important to determine. It affects your mindset.

We can't blame everything on the devil and I don't think I have heard anyone who is remotely mature in the Spirit say this. It's a wrong impression many have of WOF. They take their impression of teaching, where things really are of the enemy and using faith and authority to make changes God really wants, and then apply the working of faith against "ALL" problems as devilish and easily overcome just by quoting scripture.

The hallmark of the WOF is that they teach the authority of God's Word and the Word obviously tells us about suffering like Jesus, or Paul, etc. At the core level, to acknowledge the scripture is what WOF is all about.

I do believe some take certain verses a certain way inaccurately, but who doesn't?

Unfortunately, for the WOF groups, the only source of suffering to them is the devil,

Can't be true because the Word says otherwise, and WOF promotes the Word.

WOF, on the other hand, doesn't teach that a believer deny himself/herself, but to spend their walks insisting on entitlements.

Rather ridiculous to say because the only thing believers are "entitled" to are that which is given by God. Truth within the context it is given us your God given right paid for by Jesus Himself. Of course, we get into trouble and reap some bad things sometimes. There is also a price to be paid to the natural man that even qualifies you to receive (abiding). The whole "entitlement" thing is a common slight to WOF that takes the past tense of God's Word as something to be laid hold of and received by violence (against all forces that say "nay" and "not amen", and twists that into some kind of presumptuous privilege.

Like all promises, the conditions have to be met, and WOF preaches that loudly. It's all by grace too, another WOF standard, so we are only bold enough to come into agreement with what God has said.

Everyone makes mistakes and if you take the time to look at those who make them, then your eyes are already off of the throne. It's better not to scoff in judgment about impressions based on someone elses take on WOF, or a doctrine. It's far better to entreat with humility with the Word. That's the only way to win someone and outside of that we only lose them. We can be matter of fact according to our conscience, but pot shots amount to mud slinging and that gives "non WOF" a bad name, which is kind of prevalent among WOFFers. People "join them" and take pot shots at them and it's not very godly.

 

[now faith]

Amen and Amen. One things for sure Satan's house is not divided, he has one mission to steal kill and destroy. The further apart we get from each other the closer he gets to all of us. We shouldn't banter on petty things that won't matter anyway, pre trib . Post trib. Who cares we win anyway. We should stay on the main thing witness for Christ.

 

[Alive_Again]

Baal-gad specifically, ie 'lord of fortune'. There were many Baalim (plural of Baal). They were 'lord of [attribute]'. There were also Baalah (feminine) and Baaloth (fem pl) for example Asherah and Ashtoreth. Baal-gad was all about sowing money to reap money. It was a twisting of a biblical concept to turn it into error and following a god of prosperity instead of Yah.

This seems extreme. The biblical doctrine, of sowing and reaping is not based on Baalim or some doctrine of that. It's the idea that if you're liberal, God will be liberal with you. By liberal things you will stand.

I do agree that most of the church takes the doctrine of giving to receive in the New Covenant errantly. In the OT, the whole idea of and eye for an eye, and equal justice; coupled with the NT doctrine of the measure that you give is the measure that you receive (errantly applied to money, not to the kingdom) is entirely scriptural in its intent.

I didn't discover this myself, because I supported tithing based on the Hebrews scripture, and the bit Jesus spoke to those under law about not living it undone. I listened to some kingdom finance teachings by Gary Carpenter, whom God told that people who gave to receive as exercising "share cropper faith". You work my land, I take some, you take some based on your work, etc. God told him that it was a valid level of faith, that most would never graduate from. God told him that He wanted His sons to realize that they do not work money, although they receive a stewardship, they do not sow to receive, that they OWN the field they work in, not for their share to receive by, but out of love for their Father, and in the pursuit of His kingdom, everything would be added by grace.

My head twisted around and I told God, "You'll have to confirm this to be sure because I can't afford to not be a giver". Of course God DOES want us to give and the law was our tutor. By doing whatever the Master says in pursuit of the Father's kingdom, we have by right of being in His family, ALL of our needs and desires met. The conditions are that we have to abide, and as opportunity exists, to promote the kingdom and put it first. The Holy Spirit has increased wonderfully the seeds sown in those Gary Carpenter teachings, and I challenge anyone who is open to God showing a better way, to go to his website and download the free teachings (or text, also available).

Almost every church insists on tithing and it shows the ignorance (extremely well intended) of the church in certain areas. God wants to supernaturally provide for His people, enabling them to give supernaturally and receive the same.

Pot shots though at WOF in their take about giving to receive (actually just wanting to honor the Word and put God first as a liberal giver), is wrong because almost the whole church does this in ignorance, and God said, "Don't judge My church!". So I would only humbly suggest to not present this type of thing as some sort of confirmation of WOF or anyone elses wrong, Baalim infested doctrines. Agreed?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Doctrine of Baal?
I think the anti-prosperity folk are getting a little extreme here.
Baal?
Seriously?


2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue:

Deut 30
8 “And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.
9 “Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers;
10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

There are many many such scriptures that state the righteous will be prosperous, and here we are calling the righteous "Baal worshipers"?

At what point does ascribing the blessings of God to satan equate to blasphemy, and persecuting the righteous become a sin that will be held against you? I would take care that in your zeal to make sure God's people suffer in poverty (while you sit in the lap of luxury yourself) that you do not endanger your own souls.

 

[hopeinGod]

"I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need," Paul wrote.

Trouble with WOFers is that they refuse to learn this lesson. They want only to abound, plain and simple. A cattle on a thousand hills (as Copeland now owns through his long lasting presentations of error) and one hundred fold blessings are the goal of such believers. They do not wish to learn what it means for God to actually work inwardly, to create His character in them, to know what it truly is to lay down their lives and deny themselves. Instead, they are taught to demand what is theirs in Christ.

How long will those willful goals continue to replace, "that I may know Him....in the fellowship of His sufferings?" The Lord has been attempting to rid the church of this gross error for years through various means, i.e. the very public refusal of Copeland's hired help to work among those hypocrites who they see as living lives that are not saintly, but instead are as worldly as they come.

The C's are very much into meeting their wants, and in a BIG way. Ask yourself just how much of the money has trickled down to those who put in the work that keeps that ministry afloat? (Not that they too should set their goal to be the attainment of wealth. Instead, they should strive to lay up treasures in heaven which moth and rust can't corrupt, and where thieves don't break in and steal.)

In all the time I was associated with WOF groups, I knew of none of them who did anything in regard to evangelism, who walked the streets like I did for nights on end, hoping to lead the lost to the Lord. None of them wanted anything to do with the work of an evangelist, because, sadly, they didn't have the tools. Most were very introverted and had no desire to speak face-to-face with the lost. Instead, their visions were to build replicas of the wealth building kingdoms that saturate those in leadership positions within WOFism.

 

[Yahu]

This seems extreme. The biblical doctrine, of sowing and reaping is not based on Baalim or some doctrine of that. It's the idea that if you're liberal, God will be liberal with you. By liberal things you will stand.

I didn't say that biblical doctrine was based on Baalim worship. I said that Baalim worship is a twisting of biblical doctrines into something evil.

In the parable of the sower, we don't sow money, we sow 'WORD of the kingdom'. The seed is the WORD not a tithe or gift. We are to plant the seed of the word in other people and reap a harvest. It is NOT about giving money to get back more money. It is about winning souls to the kingdom.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

If you hear the word but are concerned about the 'deceitfulness of riches' you bring forth no fruit.

The parable of the sower is so misunderstood. For example, the 'fowl of the air' are spirits under the anti-christ spirit. It is his job to twist or steal the doctrines of Yah. The stoney ground that brings tribulation is a reference to Ashtoreth (the Great harlot), ie the principality behind all Jezebels. She is referenced many places in scripture as the pagan rock or smooth stone. She is a bringer of tribulation and terrors (ruach ra'ah, fem evil spirits). The thorns of the curse of the earth is a reference to Satan and his minions. Each member of the unholy trinity has their own tactics to destroy the WORD.

The church is full of demonic doctrines of each of those principalities. Baal-gad is not 'Baal' but one of the Baalim. Baal-gad is one of the titles of HaSatan, ie as Mammon whereas Baal without an attribute is a reference to the anti-christ spirit.

What is your focus on? Is it to sow money to reap money or to sow the Word to reap eternal souls? What is more valuable to Yah, one soul brought to salvation or all the wealth of the earth? Is your focus on things of the earth or things above?

IMO WoF uses prosperity as a lure to draw people in but the focus is WRONG. It is like the JWs lure on the doctrine that hell is just the grave and no one is tormented in hell. It is a gateway doctrine to draw people in but it is error. It is a misrepresentation of Yah which is a form of idolatry by following a false god.

There is nothing wrong with prosperity but it is wrong to have your focus on prosperity and not on Yah. Yah doesn't measure prosperity in dollars but in souls won. Is Yah just a means to bring you prosperity? Are many WoFers just gold-diggers looking to marry a wealthy husband to make their life easy? What is the husband's opinion of a wife like that?

Another form of prosperity is how many trials and tribulations you have overcome. Having conflict and problems IS A BLESSING. By overcoming those trials we grow spiritually and gain in eternal rewards. That IS eternal prosperity. You don't build the kingdom with dollars, but with TRUTH.

Why is it harder for a rich man to get to heaven? His focus is on worldly things, not on things above.

 

[Yahu]

Pot shots though at WOF in their take about giving to receive (actually just wanting to honor the Word and put God first as a liberal giver), is wrong because almost the whole church does this in ignorance, and God said, "Don't judge My church!". So I would only humbly suggest to not present this type of thing as some sort of confirmation of WOF or anyone elses wrong, Baalim infested doctrines. Agreed?

Actually we are NOT to judge the world. We are to judge other believers and our self but the manner in which we judge is the manner by which we will be judged in return. We even reap the judgement we sow. If we sow grace we reap grace.

Now of course individuals or even some congregations can escape the errors inherent in WoF like the sowing of money to reap it in return. There will be overcomers of the error in any movement. Any WoFer that overcomes the errors in doctrine that are prevelent within WoF have the potential to be great in the kingdom if they overcome misuses of spiritual authority. I see that as being an overcomer of the Laodecian church that will share the throne room for eternity. To be that overcomer, they have to overcome all the false doctrines within WoF and use their spiritual authority as directed by the Holy Spirit, not for personal desires. If we are seeking the kingdom first, then our desires are to follow the guidance of the Spirit, not to sow to our flesh and reap corruption.

 

[Yahu]

Deut 30
8 “And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.
9 “Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers;
10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.

You seem to forget the prerequisite of 'obey the laws and statues'. But most WoFers ignore the law and the conditional nature of those passages. They think the law (instructions of Yah) are done away with by the new covenant. Covenants of Yah are NOT replaced, they are amended and added upon. They overlay upon one another.

How many WoF teachers teach to obey the Old Testament law? Yes the ceremonial law for sacrifices has been fulfilled. The social laws of the nation of Israel don't pertain to us BUT all the moral law is still just as valid today as it was then. The laws concerning slaves apply just as well today to employees. The sexual law is still just as valid. The Spirit of the law is to be written upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We are to follow the Spirit but that spirit should not be a spirit of Mammon. It should not be a spirit of Baal-Gad.

It is my wish that all WoF followers reap what they sow. If they sow to the flesh may they reap 7x corruption. If they sow to greed may they reap the consequences. May all manner of trials and tribulations afflict them that they may grow spiritually to gain eternal riches by overcoming those trials. May they be purified in the fires to gain heavenly gold so that they are not poor, blind and naked on the heavenly streets.

How many WoFers would fall away if their outward prosperity was taken from them? How many could endure like Job? How many are willing to be crucified with Christ and take up their cross daily?

 

[hislegacy]

We will be prosperous in Heaven in every way.


peace,
Simon

What did Jesus pray?? Father, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Hmmm........

 

[hislegacy]

It is my wish that all WoF followers reap what they sow.

Thank you, i could not ask for a better prayer to be said for me personally.

My prayer is the EXACT same for you.