Please explain the Trinity

[razeontherock]

Nope. This is gonna take some effort on your part ...

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. This is gonna take some effort on your part ...

Well I'm here asking questions; how much effort does it take?

Ken

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

So what is this "simplicity in Christ" that Paul spoke of, that works best for you? Please explain

K

Sure, I'll share my point of view the best I can.

Here is an excerpt from a letter Paul wrote to the church in Corinth. I'm posting the Message translation which I'm sure will offend some, but I like it.

18-21The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written,

I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots.
So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb--preaching, of all things!--to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

22-25While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle--and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself--both Jews and Greeks--Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."

26-31Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don't see many of "the brightest and the best" among you, not many influential, not many from high-society families. Isn't it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these "nobodies" to expose the hollow pretensions of the "somebodies"? That makes it quite clear that none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that we have--right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start--comes from God by way of Jesus Christ. That's why we have the saying, "If you're going to blow a horn, blow a trumpet for God." - 1st Corinthians 1:18-31 (The Message)



Setting aside my experiences with God particularly when I was young and didn't know how to doubt yet, I will say that my conclusion is much more basic than the subject of this thread.

First, what is it that sets Christianity apart from every other religion in the world? If you research it, you will find it is not what many people (particularly Christians) might think.

There is only one truly unique and remarkable difference...grace.

Every other religion in the world is about performance or intellectual enlightenment. Christianity is the only one that is not focused on what man does, but what God has done and is doing and will do. I'm not talking about religion. Religion (including Christian religion) still inevitably has that focus to varying degrees and in different ways.

So then, my conclusion is that the simplicity of Christ, the thing that drove Christians to willing martyrdom, the thing that they called joy unspeakable was that God made everything right for all who put their trust in His finished work revealed in Jesus.

Now we could debate till the cows come home all the different ramifications and specifics of what this means or doesn't mean. (people have been doing that for 2000 years). However, to me the amazing thing is what it meant for them and means for me.

That God in Jesus made everything right for those who accept His finished work for them. He did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves.

That is the simplicity of Christ. Nothing we know or don't know, do or don't do, figure out or don't figure out can add or take away anything to what Christ has already done.

With this realization, I can breathe. I don't have to worry about anything because He has taken care of everything.

In other words...good news.

I'm not worried anymore about trying to figure out an infinite God with my tiny, finite mind. I also don't judge others of other faiths or of no faith (at least I try not to, I am human and fall off the wagon more regularly than I care to admit). All I know is this good news rings true in the depth of my soul and though I continually learn more and more as I go, I don't need to know anything more than that simplicity that is Christ and what He has already accomplished for me.

Hope that explains what I was saying.

Peace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Everyone seems to be saying “God” is like one being but maybe God is a group! Maybe the term God; the father, son and holy ghost, is like saying (in my case) the Jones family; me my brother, sister, and parents. So just as you say 1 God 3 persons, the Jones family is 1 family 5 persons. Jesus is not a complete God by himself, he is just a member of God as is the Father, and Holy Spirit, and I am not a complete Jones family by myself I am just a member of the Jones family; as is my siblings, and parents.
What do you think? For those who object, are there any bible references to back up your objections?

Ken

There is no wholly appropriate analogy to describe the Trinity. The family analogy works to a very limited extent, except that it deteriorates very quickly.

God is fundamentally "I-don't-know-what". That is, God is God. God's Being is God Himself and is outside comprehension or understanding. So the only appropriate description of God is that God is God.

That's a good starting point. Christianity refers to apophatic or negative theology. It is theology by negation. We do not say what God is, but rather what God is not. Because it is impossible to say what God is.

Trinitarianism says that this I-do-not-know-what; God as God is, in His absolute Being; is the fundamental quality of Being for Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is Absolute Being, meaning it is not divided, partitioned, or in anyway cut, split or the like.

Father is God.
Son is God.
Holy Spirit is God.

Not three entities/beings/things sharing an impersonal substance; but Three who are this one Absolute "Thing".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[razeontherock]

Hope that explains what I was saying.

Peace.

I applaud your usage of The Message in this context. I ask you to review my answer to this question in post #179, and comment; for the benefit of our OP. (Specifically, does what I said convey a substantially different point than what you said, or not?)

 

[Ken-1122]

Sure, I'll share my point of view the best I can.

Here is an excerpt from a letter Paul wrote to the church in Corinth. I'm posting the Message translation which I'm sure will offend some, but I like it.

18-21The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written,

I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots.
So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb--preaching, of all things!--to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

22-25While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle--and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself--both Jews and Greeks--Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."

26-31Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don't see many of "the brightest and the best" among you, not many influential, not many from high-society families. Isn't it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these "nobodies" to expose the hollow pretensions of the "somebodies"? That makes it quite clear that none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that we have--right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start--comes from God by way of Jesus Christ. That's why we have the saying, "If you're going to blow a horn, blow a trumpet for God." - 1st Corinthians 1:18-31 (The Message)



Setting aside my experiences with God particularly when I was young and didn't know how to doubt yet, I will say that my conclusion is much more basic than the subject of this thread.

First, what is it that sets Christianity apart from every other religion in the world? If you research it, you will find it is not what many people (particularly Christians) might think.

There is only one truly unique and remarkable difference...grace.

Every other religion in the world is about performance or intellectual enlightenment. Christianity is the only one that is not focused on what man does, but what God has done and is doing and will do. I'm not talking about religion. Religion (including Christian religion) still inevitably has that focus to varying degrees and in different ways.

So then, my conclusion is that the simplicity of Christ, the thing that drove Christians to willing martyrdom, the thing that they called joy unspeakable was that God made everything right for all who put their trust in His finished work revealed in Jesus.

Now we could debate till the cows come home all the different ramifications and specifics of what this means or doesn't mean. (people have been doing that for 2000 years). However, to me the amazing thing is what it meant for them and means for me.

That God in Jesus made everything right for those who accept His finished work for them. He did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves.

That is the simplicity of Christ. Nothing we know or don't know, do or don't do, figure out or don't figure out can add or take away anything to what Christ has already done.

With this realization, I can breathe. I don't have to worry about anything because He has taken care of everything.

In other words...good news.

I'm not worried anymore about trying to figure out an infinite God with my tiny, finite mind. I also don't judge others of other faiths or of no faith (at least I try not to, I am human and fall off the wagon more regularly than I care to admit). All I know is this good news rings true in the depth of my soul and though I continually learn more and more as I go, I don't need to know anything more than that simplicity that is Christ and what He has already accomplished for me.

Hope that explains what I was saying.

Peace.

I fail to see how this explains the trinity, but thanks for your reply anyway

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Ken, you specifically asked him what was this "simplicity of the Gospel" he referred to. That's what he answered.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Christ, suffered, died, and rose again the 3rd day, according to the Scriptures.

The trick here, is you do not see how this affects you in any way, let alone opens the door for you to be in Christ.
And yet it is literally that, every bit as much as Noah's Ark had an open door to survival through God's Judgment, and then that door was shut, by the Lord Himself.

After which those not on the Ark were Judged, and perished without Hope. So the simpler all this can be understood the better, but you are currently engrossed in Trinity.

This was well said.

And following this thread, something is apparent: you like to ask questions, excellent starting with the Trinity, next you chatted also about Light/life, & now re simplicity of Christ. - So, a natural question as an observer here: is all this just for talk, & more talkie?, or are you Ken going to engage God yourself... because enjoying your own personally saved relationship with God, is ultimately what matters...

God wants to help you Ken understand all kinds of things, & when you ask God with an Open-mind, He can lead you to awarenesses you haven't yet conceived, which will enrich & empower you immensely spiritually, emotionally, & physically, truthfully...

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken, you specifically asked him what was this "simplicity of the Gospel" he referred to. That's what he answered.

Yes and according to his post #167 this "simplicituy of the Gospel" was supposed to explain the trinity. I don't see how it does.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Yes and according to his post #167 this "simplicituy of the Gospel" was supposed to explain the trinity. I don't see how it does.

Ken

I just re-read his post #167, and again found it excellent. I didn't see him claim it would explain Trinity though. Can you show the part you think does?

I would really like to see you respond to Via Crucis' post. It may truly be the best thing on the subject I've ever read. (Of course you can say this is mere confirmation bias, as it reflects my own understanding in more articulate fashion)

 

[Ken-1122]

This was well said.

And following this thread, something is apparent: you like to ask questions, excellent starting with the Trinity, next you chatted also about Light/life, & now re simplicity of Christ. - So, a natural question as an observer here: is all this just for talk, & more talkie?, or are you Ken going to engage God yourself... because enjoying your own personally saved relationship with God, is ultimately what matters...

I'm just asking questions. But I appreciate your kind words and good intentions

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

I just re-read his post #167, and again found it excellent. I didn't see him claim it would explain Trinity though. Can you show the part you think does?

Sure! When he said:
(quote)“I have found even the things I have felt like I do have a good grasp on, have many times snuck up on me and it turned out I didn't understand it at all"

Now I took this to mean he at one point thought he had a good grasp on the trinity but found out he didn’t understand it at all

(quote)I have found that taking Paul's approach to things works for me a lot better. The simplicity in Christ

I took this to mean, Paul’s approach to understanding the trinity is titled “the simplicity of Christ”.
So naturally I asked him to explain “the simplicity of Christ” which helps him understand the trinity, and he gave an explanation that had nothing to do with the trinity.

I would really like to see you respond to Via Crucis' post. It may truly be the best thing on the subject I've ever read. (Of course you can say this is mere confirmation bias, as it reflects my own understanding in more articulate fashion)

No problem.

(quote)There is no wholly appropriate analogy to describe the Trinity. The family analogy works to a very limited extent, except that it deteriorates very quickly.

How does it deteriorate?

(quote)God is fundamentally "I-don't-know-what". That is, God is God. God's Being is God Himself and is outside comprehension or understanding. So the only appropriate description of God is that God is God.

From my experience most people do have a pretty good understanding of what God is; creator of the Universe and all that is in it, all good, all powerful, etc. I think your description of “God is God” is a very appropriate description because the term “God” has specific connotations attached to that title. And most people agree on those connotations.

(quote)That's a good starting point. Christianity refers to apophatic or negative theology. It is theology by negation. We do not say what God is, but rather what God is not. Because it is impossible to say what God is.[

I hear plenty of Christians describe what he is; all powerful, all knowing, creator of the Universe, The Alpha and Omega, I believe one bible verse even describes him as “love”

(quote)Trinitarianism says that this I-do-not-know-what; God as God is, in His absolute Being; is the fundamental quality of Being for Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is Absolute Being, meaning it is not divided, partitioned, or in anyway cut, split or the like.

Father is God.
Son is God.
Holy Spirit is God.

I take this to mean God is sorta like the 3 headed dog described in the Video on post #148

(quote)Not three entities/beings/things sharing an impersonal substance; but Three who are this one Absolute "Thing".

Here it sounds like he is describing the “family analogy” I mentioned earlier; but that would contradict his previous statement of them not being separate.

Ken

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

While I will let unforgettable fire give his answer if he comes back, I would be surprised to see it materially differ from this:

Christ, suffered, died, and rose again the 3rd day, according to the Scriptures.

The trick here, is you do not see how this affects you in any way, let alone opens the door for you to be "in Christ." And yet it is literally that, every bit as much as Noah's Ark had an open door to survival through God's Judgment, and then that door was shut, by the Lord Himself.

After which those not on the Ark were Judged, and perished without Hope. So the simpler all this can be understood the better, but you are currently engrossed in Trinity so best to see that through to its conclusion.

There's nothing wrong with this answer, but it wasn't really what I was alluding to. My point was that, In the world of faith, intellect makes a fine servant, but a horrible master.

@ Ken

There are many things (not just the trinity) that simply have to be accepted on faith.

The best my own reasoning can give me is realizing how hopeless it is to try and figure out God. If you can figure out God, then He most certainly isn't God.

Let's just say for a moment that you did figure out and fully understand the trinity. What have you accomplished? Reason to believe? If you are using it as reason to believe then you are basing your faith off of your own ability to understand things. While this is a choice each person has, think about how ridiculously tiny our minds are in contrast to the universe. We know so very little.

I think faith is stepping into the "not knowing." trusting the true, good God is really there, waiting, wanting us to embrace Him in faith, to let go and accept Him, the God revealed in Jesus.

Again...nothing wrong with pondering the trinity question. Just remember, when we get to heaven, we will in all likely hood all say "ohhhhh...why did I spend so much time worrying about that." Lol

 

[razeontherock]

Just so you know Ken, I concur with the above. I also point out how it concurs with "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." And I further point out how it highlights what Via Crucis said, which you seem to have dismissed. I would never use the words that Faith is stepping into the not knowing, but I think it's entirely possible that he's using those words to express something I do agree with.

 

[Ken-1122]

Just so you know Ken, I concur with the above. I also point out how it concurs with "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." And I further point out how it highlights what Via Crucis said, which you seem to have dismissed.

So what did Via Cruics say that I dismissed? I responded to everything he said!

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

The ancient saying I quoted about Tao, The Unforgettable Fire, Via Crucis, myself, and pretty much everybody else has been trying to tell you it is not our own intellect that Saves us. We can know some things about what G-d is not, but we cannot claim to fully comprehend His Essence. Sure is nice when we get a glimpse though

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Just so you know Ken, I concur with the above. I also point out how it concurs with "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." And I further point out how it highlights what Via Crucis said, which you seem to have dismissed. I would never use the words that Faith is stepping into the not knowing, but I think it's entirely possible that he's using those words to express something I do agree with.

I'll just give one example so you will see where I'm coming from. God spoke to Abraham and told him to leave his family and people and go to a city whose maker is God.

Abraham could have deliberated this for as long as he wanted. Is this one of the idol gods, how can I be sure, is this a trap, am I losing my mind, is this reasonable, does this constitute a wise intellectual decision, if it is the one true God, how does what He is asking fit into something that makes sense?

Abraham could have waited indefinitely or fabricated a story in his own mind of how this made sense, etc...

What Abraham did though was he stepped out in faith. Into the "not knowing." Just like Peter stepped out of the boat and walked briefly on water until he started looking at the waves and lost his confidence in Jesus.

 

[razeontherock]

Yes! This is surely one of the greater pictures we have of what it means to "believe." But from my frame of reference, Abram knew exactly that it was His friend, G-d, and he also knew that what was in store was good. Even though he didn't know all the details.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Yes! This is surely one of the greater pictures we have of what it means to "believe." But from my frame of reference, Abram knew exactly that it was His friend, G-d, and he also knew that what was in store was good. Even though he didn't know all the details.

My point is, details, even basic details can trip us up. I believe God is big enough to lead us in the right direction when we surrender in unwavering trust to Him.

 

[Ken-1122]

The ancient saying I quoted about Tao, The Unforgettable Fire, Via Crucis, myself, and pretty much everybody else has been trying to tell you it is not our own intellect that Saves us. We can know some things about what G-d is not, but we cannot claim to fully comprehend His Essence. Sure is nice when we get a glimpse though

When you and others gave instructions on how to get saved I will admit I did sorta dismiss all of that because I felt it was off subject; but I think I pretty much responded to everything Via Crucis said.

Ken