Please explain the Trinity

[razeontherock]

Yeah “Christian T” kinda cleared it up for me. You were saying God is everywhere which means he is not only on Neptune, but also on Mars, the Moon, the Sun, in Hell, and every other place that exists; right? The problem with that is that would mean we are all a part of God, and the Trinity can’t be 3 separate people/persons because to separate implies borders and you can’t have borders if you gonna be everywhere right?

Ken

Nope, not a problem. The only such "problem," is the separation that took place on the Cross. Trying to think your way through that can be mind-boggling ...

While I am keen on saying that questions we have for G-d need to be asked now, and pursued til we get the answer, I do look forward to asking the OT Saints what it was like being in hell when Jesus broke open its gates. I mean, even if Enoch and Elijah weren't there, Isaiah and Joseph were, ya know? What happened, exactly? How did it go down??

 

[razeontherock]

If God is everywhere, that means he occupies the same space

G-d does not occupy space

 

[Ken-1122]

G-d does not occupy space

If God does not exist in the physical world, how can you say he is everywhere?

Ken

 

[ChristianT]

*Since* when does !matter == !existence ?

(! Means 'not' or 'un- / non-')


I could have said "mass," which is the space matter takes up, but orthodox Christian belief is that God is without substance-matter- and therefore He doesn't occupy space as Raze pointed out. You [seem] to have implied that if something doesn't have mass, it can't exist or be everywhere. While light is not uniform and isn't omnipresent, it's a physical example of
1) mass != existence, and the converse
2) the physical reality does not consist of only matter and mass.

 

[razeontherock]

True point, except re-phrase since when ...

 

[Ken-1122]

*Since* when does !matter == !existence ?

(! Means 'not' or 'un- / non-')

Matter | Define Matter at Dictionary.com

k

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I realize several people have asked for an explanation of the Trinity, but the answers given doesn’t quite make sense to me and because I can’t respond on those threads I have to start my own. So here is my questions:
*Is Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit the same God with 3 nicknames? if so how could one be the son and the other the father?
*Are they each a fraction of a God and only when together they are a complete God? (kinda like the "egg white, yolk, and shell" explanation I've heard before
*Or are they each 3 separate Gods? (Polytheism)
If something different please explain

Ken

I haven't read through the 11 pages of comments. I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I spent an inordinate amount of time on this subject once and I'll tell ya, I have more issue with the over intellectualizing of not just this, but what seems to be every subject in Christianity.

I have found even the things I have felt like I do have a good grasp on, have many times snuck up on me and it turned out I didn't understand it at all. I have found that taking Paul's approach to things works for me a lot better. The simplicity in Christ. An ounce of humility has always proven to be worth several hundred pounds of intellect in my case. (I tend to turn into a know it all if I get too intellectual about things and so I regularly have to check myself and realize I am not as enlightened as I think I am. Lol)

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[razeontherock]

Matter | Define Matter at Dictionary.com

k

This only proves our point

 

[razeontherock]

I haven't read through the 11 pages of comments. I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I spent an inordinate amount of time on this subject once and I'll tell ya, I have more issue with the over intellectualizing of not just this, but what seems to be every subject in Christianity.

I have found even the things I have felt like I do have a good grasp on, have many times snuck up on me and it turned out I didn't understand it at all. I have found that taking Paul's approach to things works for me a lot better. The simplicity in Christ. An ounce of humility has always proven to be worth several hundred pounds of intellect in my case. (I tend to turn into a know it all if I get too intellectual about things and so I regularly have to check myself and realize I am not as enlightened as I think I am. Lol)

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I thought I'd throw that out there.

Awesome point, Bro! Good to see you contribute here

 

[Ken-1122]

*Since* when does !matter == !existence ?

(! Means 'not' or 'un- / non-')


I could have said "mass," which is the space matter takes up, but orthodox Christian belief is that God is without substance-matter- and therefore He doesn't occupy space as Raze pointed out. You [seem] to have implied that if something doesn't have mass, it can't exist or be everywhere. While light is not uniform and isn't omnipresent, it's a physical example of
1) mass != existence, and the converse
2) the physical reality does not consist of only matter and mass.

Light does not cannot be in the same place/space that my body occupies; thus light can’t be everywhere at the same time. Can you explain how something can be at the same space that my body occupies without it being a part of me?

K

 

[ChristianT]

Light does not cannot be in the same place/space that my body occupies; thus light can’t be everywhere at the same time. Can you explain how something can be at the same space that my body occupies without it being a part of me?

K

I believe I read somewhere that studies show that some light (photons?) actually travel through your body, and penetrates your skin. So technically, light can "occupy the space" within your body. Are you saying light takes up space?

 

[daviddub]

Light does not cannot be in the same place/space that my body occupies; thus light can’t be everywhere at the same time. Can you explain how something can be at the same space that my body occupies without it being a part of me?

K

Perhaps you might consider time. Time is whatever it is, wherever it happens to be. So it effects everything in the universe, and it is everywhere throughout the universe. Yet, it is not a part of you.

Time is, as you say, at the same space that your body occupies without it being a part of you.

The laws of logic are universal invariant abstract entities. These would also, and maybe more perfectly illustrate something that satisfies your query.

The laws of mathematics also satisfy your question. Their truth is seen on a cellular lever, atomic, sub-atomic, etc.

These are just to name a few.

But in regards to your body specifically, your thoughts, and emotions, may set off synapses in the brain, yet they don't take up any particular space there.

These are more me thinking aloud than saying these are ALL hard and fast answers.

 

[Ken-1122]

I haven't read through the 11 pages of comments. I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I spent an inordinate amount of time on this subject once and I'll tell ya, I have more issue with the over intellectualizing of not just this, but what seems to be every subject in Christianity.

I have found even the things I have felt like I do have a good grasp on, have many times snuck up on me and it turned out I didn't understand it at all. I have found that taking Paul's approach to things works for me a lot better. The simplicity in Christ. An ounce of humility has always proven to be worth several hundred pounds of intellect in my case. (I tend to turn into a know it all if I get too intellectual about things and so I regularly have to check myself and realize I am not as enlightened as I think I am. Lol)

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I thought I'd throw that out there.

So what is this "simplicity in Christ" that Paul spoke of, that works best for you? Please explain

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I believe I read somewhere that studies show that some light (photons?) actually travel through your body, and penetrates your skin. So technically, light can "occupy the space" within your body. Are you saying light takes up space?

If those light photons are inside our bodies than it is a part of us and we are a part of it

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Perhaps you might consider time. Time is whatever it is, wherever it happens to be. So it effects everything in the universe, and it is everywhere throughout the universe. Yet, it is not a part of you.

Time is, as you say, at the same space that your body occupies without it being a part of you.

The laws of logic are universal invariant abstract entities. These would also, and maybe more perfectly illustrate something that satisfies your query.

The laws of mathematics also satisfy your question. Their truth is seen on a cellular lever, atomic, sub-atomic, etc.

These are just to name a few.

But in regards to your body specifically, your thoughts, and emotions, may set off synapses in the brain, yet they don't take up any particular space there.

These are more me thinking aloud than saying these are ALL hard and fast answers.

Time; like gallons, inches, or math does not have an actual existence; it is just a measuring system humans came up with to measure one moment to the next. God has an actual existence; right?

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

God has an actual existence; right?
Ken

This is actually a necessary component of your original question re: Trinity! One of the better questions I've seen on here in quite some time, too.

What you are trying to do, is to peer into G-d's Essence, with your natural eyes, and your carnal mind. This is incredibly frustrating! And yes I do know from experience. For you and I it may even be a necessary exercise, but it is NOT the way good answers are found on this subject.

What we have all been trying to do, each in our own way, is to direct your attention in the direction of the realm of the Spirit. This is not so easy to do, as you can't "point" in that "direction." (Not literally, anyway)

Your deceptively simple question I snipped in the quote here equates "actual existence" with material existence, occupying space?

That is NOT the realm of the Spirit, which is "incorporeal;" not occupying space. Before you pretend no such thing exists, logic exists but does not take up space. And logic is of God. Truth exists, does it take up space? Love also exists, and occupies no space. Both are defined as G-d Himself.

Your line of thought that says math is a human construct only existing in man's mind touches on the realm of our conscience. Perhaps our conscience is what God refers to as "creating man in His own image?" Obviously that can't refer to any aspect of our physical appearance, right? So what I'm getting at is that there will be some overlap between our conscience (and what is in it) and G-d Himself.

I'll let you chew on that much and see what thoughts come up ...

 

[razeontherock]

If those light photons are inside our bodies than it is a part of us and we are a part of it

K

It is possible for you to apply your concept here, and get some glimpse of insight into what "theosis" means:

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, (John 17:21) that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me." (In the ESV, to avoid the thous and the thuses)

Go ahead and read the whole chapter, it's the best sermon ever preached.

 

[razeontherock]

Can you explain how something can be at the same space that my body occupies

This does not refer to the realm of the Spirit, nor does it pertain. Hopefully that will clarify

 

[razeontherock]

So what is this "simplicity in Christ" that Paul spoke of, that works best for you? Please explain

K

While I will let unforgettable fire give his answer if he comes back, I would be surprised to see it materially differ from this:

Christ, suffered, died, and rose again the 3rd day, according to the Scriptures.

The trick here, is you do not see how this affects you in any way, let alone opens the door for you to be "in Christ." And yet it is literally that, every bit as much as Noah's Ark had an open door to survival through God's Judgment, and then that door was shut, by the Lord Himself.

After which those not on the Ark were Judged, and perished without Hope. So the simpler all this can be understood the better, but you are currently engrossed in Trinity so best to see that through to its conclusion.

 

[Ken-1122]

This is actually a necessary component of your original question re: Trinity! One of the better questions I've seen on here in quite some time, too.

What you are trying to do, is to peer into G-d's Essence, with your natural eyes, and your carnal mind. This is incredibly frustrating! And yes I do know from experience. For you and I it may even be a necessary exercise, but it is NOT the way good answers are found on this subject.

What we have all been trying to do, each in our own way, is to direct your attention in the direction of the realm of the Spirit. This is not so easy to do, as you can't "point" in that "direction." (Not literally, anyway)

Your deceptively simple question I snipped in the quote here equates "actual existence" with material existence, occupying space?

That is NOT the realm of the Spirit, which is "incorporeal;" not occupying space. Before you pretend no such thing exists, logic exists but does not take up space. And logic is of God. Truth exists, does it take up space? Love also exists, and occupies no space. Both are defined as G-d Himself.

Your line of thought that says math is a human construct only existing in man's mind touches on the realm of our conscience. Perhaps our conscience is what God refers to as "creating man in His own image?" Obviously that can't refer to any aspect of our physical appearance, right? So what I'm getting at is that there will be some overlap between our conscience (and what is in it) and G-d Himself.

I'll let you chew on that much and see what thoughts come up ...

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Trinity is something that only Christians can understand and because i am not a christian I will never be able to understand. Is that it in a nutshell?

Ken