A futurist view of Revelation is insulting!

[Codger]

Great thread.

In first century Rome it was common for citizens to proclaim that "Caesar is Lord", one place they would do this is at the entrance to the market place. Before entering in they would go before a priest of the imperial cult and make their proclamation, then the priest would give them a mark that would permit them to buy and sell in the market place.

Very interesting. Could you please give the source of this information.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Good thread. The Revelation began unfolding in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

You can't be serious?

 

[Biblewriter]

In first century Rome it was common for citizens to proclaim that "Caesar is Lord", one place they would do this is at the entrance to the market place. Before entering in they would go before a priest of the imperial cult and make their proclamation, then the priest would give them a mark that would permit them to buy and sell in the market place.

I have read extensively in ancient literature and modern commentaries thereon, and have never heard of this. I find it hard to believe that such a practice could have been common and not be well known. It sounds like an explanation that is based mainly in a fertile imagination.

I will believe this when you provide citations from ancient literature and I check them out and find them correct.

Originally Posted by John S

Maybe you can tell me when a battle as horrendous as Armageddon has occurred.
​

The battle was the Roman siege on Jerusalem c. 70CE.

This is typical of the gross oversimplification required to interpret the Bible this way. The Roman siege of Jerusalem did not involve "the kings of the earth and of the whole world," but the armies of Rome. And it was not at, or even near Armageddon.

But that is not the main problem with this assumption. In the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:2-14) Jesus called the armies that "destroyed those murders, and burned up their city," (verse 7) "his armies." Thus Jesus said that the coming armies of Rome his own armies. They were completely successful, and destroyer Jerusalem, but they were not destroyed.

But the armies gathered at Armageddon will explicitly be gathered together by devils, and will be destroyed by God himself.

In short, the only thing that matches is that the siege of Jerusalem was a significant battle, and Armageddon will be a significant battle. But there is not even a comparison between the magnitudes of the significances of these two battles.

 

[earagun]

Rev. 13 shows the final empire is Greek.
a leopard beast

Daniel 8 shows how the goat kingdom came with only one head. It had a great horn on it, that was broken; but in its place came up four horns. These are not going to be heads until the leopard beast comes again. Daniel 8 shows that the one goat time ends, and then there is a latter-days for the four horns. So here is when the kingdom would rise again and have four heads.
Daniel 7 shows a lion-like beast with a head, a bear-like one, having one head, then it shows that there is the leopard with one head and four wings, then "the beast" had also four heads and dominion was given to it. This "the beast" is when Daniel saw the leopard beast show up again.

Did you ever wonder why such a sneaky and elusive beast such as a leopard is described as from where the antichrist comes, and does so through intrigue......Leopards are rarely seen, especially before they strike

 

[Presentist]

Good thread. The Revelation began unfolding in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

I think the Revelation began unfolding soon after it was written. The fourth century fits better with the fifth and sixth seals...

.

.

 

[earagun]

Eclipsenow - I'm Sorry that you feel insulted.
Maybe you can tell me when people had to get a "mark" to be able to buy or sell.
Maybe you can tell me when a battle as horrendous as Armageddon has occurred.
Maybe you can tall me when Jesus returned a 2nd time.
Maybe you can tell me when the world has experienced 1000 years of peace.

He says he's insulted, but I guess not enough to give a few answers.......Its fine to believe Revelation has already happened, but if the story doesn't fit the history, then getting a hammer to smash the corners of the puzzle into place is not good hermeneutics........the coming of Christ and the rise of the antichrist are inseparatable events, you can't have one with out the other

 

[Presentist]

the coming of Christ and the rise of the antichrist are inseparatable events

I think you meant to say, "The coming of Christ and the destruction of the Antichrist are inseperable events."

2 Thessalonians 2:8 says "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

.

.

 

[earagun]

I think the Revelation began unfolding soon after it was written. The fourth century fits better with the fifth and sixth seals...

.

.

double post.....

 

[earagun]

I think you meant to say, "The coming of Christ and the destruction of the Antichrist are inseperable events."

2 Thessalonians 2:8 says "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

.

.

First of all your timeline is way off, We are told the head of Gold is represented by Babylon, (Babel to be more correct) from where Babylon got its name.....Media Persia gives birth to the second kingdom but is not the kingdom itself and this is proven by Daniels own words the second kingdom would be INFERIOR!(see Daniel 2:39)......no historian would ever conclude that the Median Persian empire was INFERIOR to the Babylonian empire, Media Persia DOUBLED IN SIZE AND MILITARY STRENGTH! this is not INFERIOR! understanding the last and final kingdom would help you understand the four previous, as Jesus the Rock destroys the false kingdoms as the bible says "AT THE SAME TIME" these kingdoms will all still be in existance when Christ comes again......notice the false kingdom that comes out of the Roman empire........now your starting to see the picture!

 

[interpreter]

Eclipsenow - I'm Sorry that you feel insulted.
Maybe you can tell me when people had to get a "mark" to be able to buy or sell.

Allow me to answer your many questions.
According to Hitler's Mein Kampf, he planned to require anyone wanting to buy or sell food to have a permit from the Third Reich stamped with a swastika. Those days were cut short for the sake of the elect.

Maybe you can tell me when a battle as horrendous as Armageddon has occurred.

The Euphrates was dry on 9/11 when the first shot was fired.

Maybe you can tall me when Jesus returned a 2nd time.

On Oct. 28th, 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power (though ST. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow).

Maybe you can tell me when the world has experienced 1000 years of peace.

It could be argued that that hasn't happened yet, although as a precursor, the first two Christian kingdoms (the first 2 horsemen) both lasted over 1000 years.

 

[John S]

Interpreter - I'm Sorry but you are wrong.

 

[Biblewriter]

According to Hitler's Mein Kampf, he planned to require anyone wanting to buy or sell food to have a permit from the Third Reich stamped with a swastika. Those days were cut short for the sake of the elect.

But that never happened. The Bible explicitly says it will happen, not that there will be a plan for it to happen.

The Euphrates was dry on 9/11 when the first shot was fired.

I well remember the pictures that were released at the time. And the Euphrates was full of water.

 

[earagun]

I like your charts. Thanks!
Futurists have very long legs

Thats only because you have the wrong list of kingdoms, you have listed the empires from which the kingdoms rise out of. the kingdoms are spiritual, just as God raises up in the times of those kingdoms a kingdom that will never be destroyed, Jesus's kingdom is real, its made up of real people, but what your missing is the kingdoms have no boundries or borders.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The Bible devote's most of it's "end times" prophecies to two specific end times. One is the end of the old covenant age which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. The second is the end of the age of the gentiles which was specifically prophesied to end in 1453 A.D. Although the book of Revelation mentions the end of the old covenant age in Rev. 6:9-7:8 and 14:1-4. It is mostly dedicated to prophesying about the end of the age of the gentiles. The time period when those four empires named in Daniel as Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome would rule over all of gods saints both new and old testament.

That is the troubling thing about "end time" prophecy teachings. We are not living in a prophesied end time age. We are right smack dab in the middle or even the beginning of what I like to call "The Great Gospel Age." There are more than a hundred chapters of the Bible devoted to prophecies about this age that Christians for the most part do not even know exist as relevant prophecy for us.

Prophecy is a gift of the grace of God. He has given it to us so that we may know how to conduct ourselves during the time periods of that prophecy. To show us what we can reasonably expect. What may and may not be possible during that time period for a people of faith. It is insider information to tell us where we should invest our time and efforts.

Modern end time teachings are taking prophesies for a different era and putting them in our era. They prophsey the extreme opposite of what is actually possible in the age in which we live. These end time teachings are false in exactly the sense false prophesy went forth form the prophets of Jehovah in the old testament. The damage being done to the cause of Christ is immeasurable. The heart breaking thing is believers of our time have no idea how what they beleive is doing that damage. A clue? They cannot and I repeat cannot recieve a a truly unadulterated vision for the future from heaven. Their spirit has already accepted the extreme opposite of What God could show them and give them fatih for. Show me a man that can see accurately a hundred years down the road and I will show you a man who has a piece of heaven in him. People, it will NOT be a godless future.

 

[Biblewriter]

The Bible devote's most of it's "end times" prophecies to two specific end times. One is the end of the old covenant age which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. The second is the end of the age of the gentiles which was specifically prophesied to end in 1453 A.D.

This is a new one on me. What scripture did you get that idea from?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Can't figure out how to delete this.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This is a new one on me. What scripture did you get that idea from?

Well unfortunately I would not have written that had I realized I couldn't post a link as a newbie. Way to big of a subject for a forum. The Roman Empire ended in 1453 A.D. with the conquering of Constantinople. The Bible prophesies this date by interpreting the seven headed ten horned beast as: The seven heads are the first seven emperors. The ten horns are the next ten. Note: this does not count those who claimed the emperor-ship in time of civil war. It only counts the victor who came out on top. That leaves you at 193 A.D., The beginning of the reign of the 18th emperor (the time of the little horn of Daniel.). Add 1260 years to 193 and you get 1453. The 1260 years is repeated five or six times in Daniel and Revelation. It is really fascinating and really quite simple. Radical in fact that the Word of God would prophesy a date so accurately.
I go into great detail about it in an article that I cannot post as a newbie. I'll Try it this way if you want to read it. wordservice.org is the page. Scroll down and click on Bible Prophecy then click on end time prophecy.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Bible prophesies this date by interpreting the seven headed ten horned beast as: The seven heads are the first seven emperors.

Why? Did Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes mean he was one of 7 emperors? No. Of course not. But there was a reference to the 7fold spirit! What's that about? The Holy Spirit isn't the 3rd person in the Godhead any more? No. The number is being used in its Jewish sense of God's perfection.

Try to be consistent with Jewish number symbolism please! When Revelation uses 7 of Jesus eyes and horns, it is referring to God's perfect authority and knowledge.

Chapter 12-14 recounts the gospel story so far, with Mary giving birth to Jesus and Satan opposing the baby from birth. Satan (the dragon) has 7 heads and 10 horns. He is imitating Jesus perfect power and authority.


The 7 horned 10 headed beast is trying to imitate Jesus; but in the end it mimics Satan. The number patterns are repeated for a reason. The terrifying beast is Rome which persecuted God's people and, from an Ancient Middle Eastern world-view and cosmology, basically controlled the whole world. It might sound silly to modern ears, but to them Rome really did rule the world.

And in describing Rome, and how Christians were to act towards their persecution, he describes how Christians should act in all situations of 'beastly' government sponsored persecution.

Remember, ONLY this reading is consistent with the way John describes the purpose of the whole book in the first verse!

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The time really was near, as the Roman persecution was just about to burst forth. And, even though we in the western world are not under persecution now (praise the Lord!), the time remains near. Because while we might not be persecuted, we can face prejudice, and we must resist the temptation to trust in worldly security and authorities rather than God. So while it is primarily about Rome, just as the books of Corinthians were about and to the church in Corinth, the wisdom in the book can be applied to today. Well, to every age of Christians actually, including the last 2000 years.

Otherwise, reading it as you do, the book is mostly irrelevant most of the time.

 

[earagun]

Well unfortunately I would not have written that had I realized I couldn't post a link as a newbie. Way to big of a subject for a forum. The Roman Empire ended in 1453 A.D. with the conquering of Constantinople. The Bible prophesies this date by interpreting the seven headed ten horned beast as: The seven heads are the first seven emperors. The ten horns are the next ten. Note: this does not count those who claimed the emperor-ship in time of civil war. It only counts the victor who came out on top. That leaves you at 193 A.D., The beginning of the reign of the 18th emperor (the time of the little horn of Daniel.). Add 1260 years to 193 and you get 1453. The 1260 years is repeated five or six times in Daniel and Revelation. It is really fascinating and really quite simple. Radical in fact that the Word of God would prophesy a date so accurately.
I go into great detail about it in an article that I cannot post as a newbie. I'll Try it this way if you want to read it. wordservice.org is the page. Scroll down and click on Bible Prophecy then click on end time prophecy.

then again you may want to read the end of the book of Daniel and see that this prophecy is completely connected with the resurrection of the dead, and the coming of Christ, as these two events are inseparable

 

[Isatis]

Thats only because you have the wrong list of kingdoms, you have listed the empires from which the kingdoms rise out of. the kingdoms are spiritual, just as God raises up in the times of those kingdoms a kingdom that will never be destroyed, Jesus's kingdom is real, its made up of real people, but what your missing is the kingdoms have no boundries or borders.

Huh? "You have listed"??? but those charts are not mine