Women Are Still the Most Discriminated Against

[johnd]

And the statement of Paul in 1 Timothy 2 is grounded in the same universal language Christ used in Matthew 19 about the universal application of marriage... namely: alluding to the progenitors of the human race.

You find people who are not related to Adam and Eve, then we'll talk culture or era on how women were treated...

 

[Everlasting33]

I agree it probably would have been a man, but that is due to the prophetic nature of the deliverance (it foreshadowed Christ's deliverance of humanity), and not due to "Well it has to have male genatalia in order for me to ordain it to lead anyone".

It the prophetic nature and symbolism were not so important, it could've been Miriam. I doubt Zipporah, but Miriam is a possibility, judging by how she is demonstrated to be the first worship leader after the passage through the Sea (she leads them in song of worhsip), and how when she and Aaron question Moses, and she is stricken (which leads me to believe hers was a harsher criticism that was more unfounded, not that "oh well woman should shut up and not have opinions"), the entire Israelite community waits for her to be healed and cleansed before they move on...

If women didn't mean a lot and weren't capable of being or seen as leaders, she would've just been left for dead.

Judges were raised up to shame and restore the Israelites ad nauseam for 400 (give or take a few) years. The fact that Deborah's judgeship is mentioned in detail when so many are glossed over tells that she was important, and not just because she was shaming men into being men... she was judging a nation and getting them to return to God.

Eudia and Syntyche (sp?) were admonished by Paul to come to an agreement... now why would Paul tell two women to stop their quarrel with one another and reach conensus if they were just baking cookies and letting men lead? He WOULD NOT HAVE. It would have been pointless and a waste of precious ink and time and parchment. It seems that they were important figures, they had leadership roles of some capacity, and Paul urged them not to shut up, sit down, knit something and let men do all the leading, but to come to agreement with one another.

Then there's Priscilla and Aquila. The literary means of introducing them suggests Pricilla's role was more prominent, that she held more power and more authoority than her husband. The more important of any grouping was listed first. And Aquila, the man, is always listed FOLLOWING Priscilla.

Who happened to teach. A man. With her husband, yes. But she is mentioned first when they are mentioned together, suggesting, grammatically, she held greater importance within the community, and not just the secular community.

I am not ever going to say that men and women are just alike in everything. Obviously there are physical differences, as well as emotional and physiological ones. But we are also more alike than many would like to admit.

Masculine society says men don't cry for anything (maybe the death of a spouse or parent, but even then they must do so quickly then "be strong"). Hogwash. Masculine society tells us men are good leaders and women should just follow, maybe give an opinion but be ready to just go with what the person with more testosterone says just the same. As silly as it is to quote Peter Griffin (of Family Guy):
That's cute, honey, but this is grown-up time and I'm the man and I say...

God raised women up to be full heirs in Christ, and to be full partners in Christ with men. Only after the Church became institutionalized and a few Popes into it did they decide "no women priests allowed".

And lastly, the desire to preach the Gospel can come from 1 of 2 places, ultimately. God, or Satan. One may say "but it could just be us getting too big for ouselves, deceiving ourselves, etc..." Perhaps, but that comes from the devil. The devil uses our egos and inflates them so that we do what he wants by making us think it's what we want/deserve. So, God or Satan.

Why in the hell would Satan want ANYONE to preach the Gospel? He wouldn't. Every soul who hears it and is saved as a result is a soul he loses forever, and he does not want that. Unless he's even dumber than I thought. (And funny how Satan is always personified in the he... well being a fallen angel and all, it fits, but still... never she... just a thought that's mostly silly with only a hint of seriousness directed at this topic).

Now if you'll excuse me, or even if you won't, I must go. I'm going to try and help my wife discern her Call, which I know she has heard through the still-small voice.

Excellent post!

 

[johnd]

Incidentally, my prior post about homosexual marriage was not to condone the practice. It was merely stating that we have a lot of logs to take out of our own eyes first before we start mote-picking.

Indecent practices among pagan led nations have been in practice since Cesar was a little boy. And by the way one Cesar had his male lover *fixed* and married him. Paul did not mention it once in any of his epistles.

What makes it an affront in America and England and wherever else is that these nations have become so pagan (so unChristian, so uninfluenced by the believers who were called to be salt and light to a dark and putrefying world)... and that grade card (score card) is about the Church, not the pagans. Pagans do what pagans do best... be pagan.

We on the other hand have learned to look the other way for pre marital sex, extra marital sex, we back down or lose interest on every assault on marriage including marriage jokes and we ah ha ha ha laugh along with everyone else. Miss California who is one of our own is displayed in what is called semi-nude photos. Did you catch that? Plumbing was showing, but is was semi-nude by the new definition. We are being so desensitized! The Bible describes nudity to include what she displayed in only the swim suit competition. Read for yourself:

Isaiah 47:1-3
1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

And we just look the other way or are too desensitized to care.





Don't get me started...

 

[johnd]

Excellent post!

What's excellent about it?

In point after point, it was presumed or alleged that females taught or usurped authority over (adult) males. And the only one in scripture for certain is Deborah, and that was to shame the men.

Judges 4:9
9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Since the teaching of Apollos was by both Priscilla and Aquila, a compound mention, there is no way to prove who did what. Whose to say Priscilla did not minister to the needs of the guest and her husband in feeding them and serving them while Aquila did the actual teaching?

And what is not so great about the post in question is that it belittles a function of loving, good hearted women who go to a lot of trouble to serve milk and cookies and keep nice clean homes...

My wife tore both hamstrings and I was educated empirically and on the job training just how hard women work in the home, and I'll not sit idly by while someone runs it down, detracts from it, or those who pat them on the back for intimating it is less a ministry than pounding the pulpit is!

 

[Nadiine]

Exactly (to the prev. post).
Deborah was the exception to the rule - not the rule.
And that was becuz no men took the role God gave them.
When she sent them into battle, the man said "I'll go but
you have to come with us".
Cowardly men.
It was to their shame.

& Look what God says here:
Isaiah 3:12
As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people!
Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.”

This was a negative aspect in ruling & leading, not a positive one.
The beginning of Isaiah are judgments over Israel, God is not
pleased with them at all.

And it's real interesting to use the OT in this case - since God ALSO allowed
polygamy and divorce for convenience which is not allowed in the NT.

God does let women teach and hold ministry positions, but she is NOT to
hold authority over her own husband

 

[Nadiine]

Taking it truly in context, the verse in 1 Corinthians was part of a letter written to the Corinthians. I'm not a Corinthian; are you?

If you're going to remove yourself from NT scripture
becuz you aren't a Corinthian, then you have to ignore
EVERY BIT of Paul's instructions to the NT church given
in 1 - 2 Corinthians.... "it's only to them".

Paul was sent (By God) to the GENTILES, not just to "the Corinthians". Further, his role was church planting and
instruction. He was shaping the entire NT church.
Not ONLY the Corinthians.

I cannot even believe you used this horrific excuse to
wriggle out of this verse! Used consistently, you will
nullify most of the bible's teachings to everyone; rendering it impotent and useless for any instruction but what we
decide we like and want to take.

Again, taking it truly in context, the verse in Ephesians was part of a letter written to the Ephesians. I'm not an Ephesian; are you?

This is pitiful as any excuse.

That means that everything in Ephesians is wiped out by
you; meaningless and on applicable.

No wonder God set up men to rule.

Countless incidents of painless childbirth (epidurals are a God-send, trust me) and women who have been less than thrilled with their husbands says that God was addressing this statement not to you, not to me, but to Eve specifically.

The epidural IS PROOF THAT THERE'S STILL PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH and that it continues!
hello?

What you're saying here has already been tried by (Tissue). and it fails.
Weeds/thorns grow (they even grow without water!) and force us to work the ground -it was a perpetual curse - weed killer doesn't stop the curse,
it's an alternative to help us work less hard under the curse.
Pain killers only help relieve the source of the curse -
it continues causing pain.
The day women don't need ANY painkillers becuz they
feel zero pain bearing children is the day you have any
case. Not until.

Context is grand, isn't it? Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that God was obviously speaking to a certain individual, and what He was saying evidently applied to her.

Context is only grand when it's PROPERLY USED.
To claim that you can rip out all of Corinthians &
Ephesians becuz you aren't a Corinthian or Ephesians
is abuse of context to put it lightly.

I highly suggest you learn some hermeneutics.

That's for sure. These are things that were written to a certain group of people at a certain point way back in history in a land far away from here.

No, this is NOT cultural - Genesis 3 proves that this
topic is NOT about culture whatsoever; it's perpetual.

For that matter, using your study method, I can say
that the Great commission was ONLY given to the
disciples or Jews in THEIR DAY - none of us need to
go witnessing the gospel today, it didn't apply to us
personally; just them back then.


If I continue to use your interprative method, I can
render the Bible a useless sham in most all areas
due to who the books & letters are written to in
that era. wow.

We 21st-century types are essentially reading (and arguing) over other people's mail. Still, that’s no reason to demonize those whose interpretations of said mail differ from our own.

Worse, we in the 21st century have lost any grasp on
truth and are not listening to God's Spirit or heeding
God's word.

Peter says it best:
2 Peter 3:15-16



15 just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[LJSGM]

Unfortunately, I see misapplication of terms placed onto scripture.

Yes, I see your misapplication.

You see all women as husbands to all men when the scriptures say that men are to treat women as sisters and mothers.

1 Timothy 5

Advice About Widows, Elders and Slaves

1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

in a physcial family, does a son EVER have authority over his mother?

Does a younger brother have authority over an older sister?

No, by nature it is those who are older that have authority.

(You do see brothers as being "protectors" of their sisters if they are faced with physical danger since women are the weaker vessel.)

They're taking God's spiritual domain and forcing it to comply
with secular worldly domains as if man's domain is somehow "better" and more "fair".

But it is better.

In what way does a woman ministering for God make the world worst, keeping in mind there are not a Limited amount of "positions" in the church?

 

[LJSGM]

please read the CONTEXT of that verse.
It's about SALVATION, not positional order or anything else. It cannot be applied here to mean what you're trying to
push it as.

It's saying all are of equal value to God as human beings -
there's no age, no color, no race, no gender, no financial class,
that God cannot reach or will not reach becuz He is racist or prejudice.

Any class, race, color, age, gender, size or status of human beings
can be born again (in Christ). ALL are considered equal.
Using that verse does not apply to this topic and has nothing to
do with positional/spiritual order

Read it again.

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul called jew, greek, slave, free, male and female "Sons of God" and "heirs" to the inheritance.

You are mistaken to think we do not inherit anything while on this earth.

Because we recieve righteousness now, we recieve the inheritance of the Holy Spirit NOW, and we recieve the giftings of that spirit now. Our redemtion began the moment we believed, not after we die.

 

[johnd]

Exactly (to the prev. post).
Deborah was the exception to the rule - not the rule.
And that was becuz no men took the role God gave them.
When she sent them into battle, the man said "I'll go but
you have to come with us".
Cowardly men.
It was to their shame.

& Look what God says here:
Isaiah 3:12
As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people!
Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.”

This was a negative aspect in ruling & leading, not a positive one.
The beginning of Isaiah are judgments over Israel, God is not
pleased with them at all.

And it's real interesting to use the OT in this case - since God ALSO allowed
polygamy and divorce for convenience which is not allowed in the NT.

God does let women teach and hold ministry positions, but she is NOT to
hold authority over her own husband

Isaiah 4:1
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

7 = totality
1 = authority
The name they desired to be called by is "man."

This is prophetic of the recent distorted version of the women's movement (going against God-ordained commission and definition of the roles of males and females).

Genesis 3:16
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Hebrew is very terse in some ways and very poetic in other ways and almost always to the point. Her desire shall be to (be) the husband... and (but) he shall rule over her.

It can be the opposite, but consequences come of it and the couple and the people who live that way are in effect in warfare with nature and their own natures. A woman can teach and can be in authority over a man... but there is a price to be paid, and a daily war against nature to be waged.

 

[johnd]

Read it again.

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul called jew, greek, slave, free, male and female "Sons of God" and "heirs" to the inheritance.

You are mistaken to think we do not inherit anything while on this earth.

Because we recieve righteousness now, we recieve the inheritance of the Holy Spirit NOW, and we recieve the giftings of that spirit now. Our redemtion began the moment we believed, not after we die.

I must step in here. The highlighted is YOUR mere opinion. The inheritance and our citizenship is not of this world. In fact it is the thin gs of this world and believers' preoccupation with them that hinders the spread of the Gospel most of all.

 

[johnd]

At the very least you must by the very nature of the point of scripture admit and acknowledge the distinctions and contrasts between the Spirit and the world.

John 4:19-24
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Are you now willing LJSGM for the sake of your argument to impose the worldly upon the spiritual and claim to be a physical heir of Abraham? That's what the Holy Roman Empire did and tried to take up residence in Israel. Look at the disaster that was.

 

[johnd]

We have a much higher calling than that. Spiritual Judaism, Spirit Israel, the Israel of God.

Galatians 6:13-16
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[johnd]

And until we die, or are taken out at his call or his return, we must muddle through this fallen world down here, and the Bible prescribes the best way to do that. Live by the spirit and not the flesh. Most can't get past that.

Micah 6:8
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Look at the Apostles... before the cross they fought and wrestled to put themselves forward... after the cross they humbled themselves unto death and their greatness was thrust upon them which they refocused immediately on Christ.

 

[LJSGM]

I must step in here. The highlighted is YOUR mere opinion. The inheritance and our citizenship is not of this world. In fact it is the thin gs of this world and believers' preoccupation with them that hinders the spread of the Gospel most of all.

My opinion?

Do you think that scriptures are my opinion?

Do you think we don't recieve the Holy Spirit when we believe, a righteousness from God?

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 17:20-22 (New International Version)


20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[a] you."

When Jesus said "the kindgom is near," he said this because it "began" after his death and ressurrection, after pentecost.

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[Rajni]

If they are one flesh, then they should share the head, ja? If they are truly one flesh, how can the husband be said to be exclusively the 'head'? Any amount of authority expressed in this verse must be girded by the love of Christ and mutual submission, which complete negates the theme of superiority and inferiority found in many conservative expressions of this doctrine.

Amen. This is reminiscent of 1 Corinthians 7:4:

The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
​

There's definitely a balancing out of the authority/submission to be found there.



















.

 

[Rajni]

[/size][/font]
If you're going to remove yourself from NT scripture
becuz you aren't a Corinthian, then you have to ignore
EVERY BIT of Paul's instructions to the NT church given
in 1 - 2 Corinthians.... "it's only to them".

Paul was sent (By God) to the GENTILES, not just to "the Corinthians". Further, his role was church planting and
instruction. He was shaping the entire NT church.
Not ONLY the Corinthians.

I cannot even believe you used this horrific excuse to
wriggle out of this verse! Used consistently, you will
nullify most of the bible's teachings to everyone; rendering it impotent and useless for any instruction but what we
decide we like and want to take.



This is pitiful as any excuse.

That means that everything in Ephesians is wiped out by
you; meaningless and on applicable.

No wonder God set up men to rule.


The epidural IS PROOF THAT THERE'S STILL PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH and that it continues!
hello?

What you're saying here has already been tried by (Tissue). and it fails.
Weeds/thorns grow (they even grow without water!) and force us to work the ground -it was a perpetual curse - weed killer doesn't stop the curse,
it's an alternative to help us work less hard under the curse.
Pain killers only help relieve the source of the curse -
it continues causing pain.
The day women don't need ANY painkillers becuz they
feel zero pain bearing children is the day you have any
case. Not until.


Context is only grand when it's PROPERLY USED.
To claim that you can rip out all of Corinthians &
Ephesians becuz you aren't a Corinthian or Ephesians
is abuse of context to put it lightly.

I highly suggest you learn some hermeneutics.


No, this is NOT cultural - Genesis 3 proves that this
topic is NOT about culture whatsoever; it's perpetual.

For that matter, using your study method, I can say
that the Great commission was ONLY given to the
disciples or Jews in THEIR DAY - none of us need to
go witnessing the gospel today, it didn't apply to us
personally; just them back then.


If I continue to use your interprative method, I can
render the Bible a useless sham in most all areas
due to who the books & letters are written to in
that era. wow.

Worse, we in the 21st century have lost any grasp on
truth and are not listening to God's Spirit or heeding
God's word.

Peter says it best:
2 Peter 3:15-16



15 just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Hey, you're the one who got all hung up on context. Now you see the slippery slope that comes from that. I can tell I hit a nerve with that one -- you wouldn't have reacted the way you did if there weren't some truth to what I previously pointed out.

To then make the leap from what I said to essentially chucking all of Scripture was disingenuous on your part. I think you know better than that.

You see, Nadiin'es definition of context is not the final word on proper context, savvy? Unless you're claiming infallibility -- I already got that runaround from the Pope, having grown up Catholic -- color me not impressed.










.

 

[Rajni]

The epidural IS PROOF THAT THERE'S STILL PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH and that it continues! hello?

Hello to you! Like, totally!

Anyway – There are contractions in childbirth. Pain, however, doesn’t register as pain unless one actually feels it.

God said, unequivocally, that He would “greatly multiply your pain in childbirth”. Now, having borne two children, my experience is that the pain was “greatly diminished” – actually, for the 2nd labor, it was eliminated completely. Now, Nadiine, either God was lying when He said that, or He was speaking to Eve directly. Take your pick -- and as you're doing so, a little hint: don't toss the Scripture out completely, as seems to be your impulse, simply because someone dared to suggest that God was not speaking to you, Nadiine, personally when He said the things He did in those passages. Ego has nothing to do with this.

 

[Tissue]

The epidural IS PROOF THAT THERE'S STILL PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH and that it continues!
hello?

We have the means to circumvent it. But, naturally, that pain is there. Likewise, we have the means to circumvent the domination of women by men, but naturally, that might still be there.

What you're saying here has already been tried by (

Tissue). and it fails.
Weeds/thorns grow (they even grow without water!) and force us to work the ground -it was a perpetual curse - weed killer doesn't stop the curse,
it's an alternative to help us work less hard under the curse.
Pain killers only help relieve the source of the curse -
it continues causing pain.
The day women don't need ANY painkillers becuz they
feel zero pain bearing children is the day you have any
case. Not until.

The curse corresponds to the fall. In Christ, we are called into a new community.

And weeds do need water to grow.

I highly suggest you learn some hermeneutics.

The first, critical assumption of proper exegesis is a recognition that the author of Scripture was writing to a particular group of people thousands of years ago, and not you.

There is, of course, value in Scripture. Absolutely. But it shouldn't be read as a letter to us.

No, this is NOT cultural - Genesis 3 proves that this

topic is NOT about culture whatsoever; it's perpetual.

On the contrary, the power of Christ has enabled us to move beyond the nature of the fall and into a new community of life and regeneration.

For that matter, using your study method, I can say

that the Great commission was ONLY given to the
disciples or Jews in THEIR DAY - none of us need to
go witnessing the gospel today, it didn't apply to us
personally; just them back then.

The Commission was only given to the audience. Nevertheless, it can certainly be taken to have meaning for us, and we should evangelize.

If I overhear a professor giving advice to a student, the message was not directly for me, but I may benefit from it nonetheless.

 

[Tissue]

I must step in here. The highlighted is YOUR mere opinion. The inheritance and our citizenship is not of this world. In fact it is the thin gs of this world and believers' preoccupation with them that hinders the spread of the Gospel most of all.

You are in the world, just as we are.

The vast majority of Christians affirm the work of the Spirit in the world today, both in themselves and in others.

I didn't see anything wrong with the highlighted portion of her post.

 

[Tissue]

Since the teaching of Apollos was by both Priscilla and Aquila, a compound mention, there is no way to prove who did what. Whose to say Priscilla did not minister to the needs of the guest and her husband in feeding them and serving them while Aquila did the actual teaching?

Because, in most of the times Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned, her name is mentioned first. In Paul's time, that lended her importance and honor. Her status as a teacher is less in question than Aquila (though, I somehow think you have no problem affirming his status as a teacher).

And what is not so great about the post in question is that it belittles a function of loving, good hearted women who go to a lot of trouble to serve milk and cookies and keep nice clean homes...

There's nothing wrong with women who wish to live that lifestyle, but it should not be imposed upon those who do not.