If God is punishing me...

[Cassidy]

The sheep hear his voice and they follow!

 

[Tenebrae]

The sheep hear his voice and they follow!

Absolutely

 

[Tenebrae]

The abused wife is a bad example.
A better example would be the lazy vineyard servants that neglected the vineyard.

The Holy Spirit does work on our hearts, but that doesn't mean everyone will listen and change.

The abused wife is a very good example, it outlines how Christians get into bondage because they have this mistaken delusion that holiness comes from adherence to a set of external standards.

True holiness happens because we allow the Holy Spirit access to the most deepest areas of our lives and allow him to change us from within. Our walk changes because of what the Holy Spirit is doing in us.

 

[Strong in Him]

the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobediance

What do you do with that verse then?

1. I am a daughter
2. I am a daughter of God, not a daughter of disobedience.

He has set his seal of ownership on me, and put his Spirit in my heart as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Cor 1:22). If you have received Jesus as your Saviour, then he has done that for you too.

 

[KleinerApfel]

The abused wife is a very good example, it outlines how Christians get into bondage because they have this mistaken delusion that holiness comes from adherence to a set of external standards.

True holiness happens because we allow the Holy Spirit access to the most deepest areas of our lives and allow him to change us from within. Our walk changes because of what the Holy Spirit is doing in us.

That's good news!

 

[MARK777]

The abused wife is a very good example, it outlines how Christians get into bondage because they have this mistaken delusion that holiness comes from adherence to a set of external standards.

True holiness happens because we allow the Holy Spirit access to the most deepest areas of our lives and allow him to change us from within. Our walk changes because of what the Holy Spirit is doing in us.

 

[nephilimiyr]

you said you tried and didn't fight sin...what else did you do? What I mean is...that it's not enough to just 'not do' you need to 'trust God' - that's the answer.

Like...you have an issue with inappropriate content right? One that you are aware of and you are trying to deal with on a day to day basis (please correct me if I'm getting too personal). But Christ doesn't do inappropriate content! So that's your answer - Christ! He doesn't ...so you have to fall into his arms and allow him to lead you because he will not lead you to inappropriate content...because he doesn't do inappropriate content - so neither will you!

How? You ask? Well....it's a spiritual matter isn't it? it's a faith matter. It's a belief matter. Do you believe that Christ can do this FOR you? If so then you need to live this. Speaking to myself here too...about my anger issue with my kids...Christ doesn't shout and rant and rave! So I need to fall into Christ and allow him to deal with my kids though me - and not allow my 'flesh' to take over. Walking in the spirit is praying in the spirit..it's thinking, meditating on his word. It's speaking the word over your life. It's saying "I am not angry, I am a kind, peacful and meek person".

You maybe perhaps the wiseist woman I have ever met in this forum. , I don't mean to inflate your ego too much. Just want you to know that you are impressing me greatly in this thread. Actually alot of people here have. I didn't know that this many here believe in grace and how to live it the same way that I do, I'm greatly encouraged!

I used to be addicted to inappropriate content myself, and I'm not ashamed to talk about it because the deliverance from it is reason to glorify God, and isn't that the purpose?

One thing you said that hit the home run for me was when you said "it's a spiritual matter isn't it?", yes it is. It's easy for us guys to only see it as a physical matter, or rather a body and soul matter. We end up struggling with our minds and bodies believeing we have to change what we're doing. That we have to repent and just stop engaging in it. The word "me" comes up alot in this, we are in the "me" generation don't you know?

This is a spiritual battle though, it's not about us battling the demons in our minds, if that is what you are doing then you are already doomed to failure. The only way to gain victory over this is to not even be in the battle. Step out of it and into the open arms of Jesus and there is where you will find rest. Yes that means you have to engage in praying in the spirit, meditating on his word, it's all of those things you listed. The Spirit does the battle for us and only then will the battle be won. If we leave it up to ourselves and will power, you will fail. Yes the word tells us to use will power, in fact it's one of the fruits of the Spirit (self-control) but the way we get there isn't through our efforts in the battle over the flesh but our efforts in staying in his arms. He does the work and that is how He gets the glory. See, otherwise if you by chance win the battle over the flesh by your will power and self-control, all the glory goes to you.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Romans 5:1-2, Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Yes God does dicipline/correct/instruct us according to his word, but punishment for our sins, no. According to God sin is no longer an issue with him because He dealt with it 2000 years ago. As far as He is concerned the warfare is over and He has replaced it with peace.

Luke 2:14, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.

Good words isn't that? "On whom his favor rests" if his favor does not rest upon his children, who then is favored?

God is not obligated to take away the consequences we recieve as a result of our sins. That is not his job. God does not selectively send these consequences of sin to us as punishment, it's simply the law of cause and effect. However, when we pray for God to take these consequences away, He can be selective.

 

[nephilimiyr]

God doesn't punish those whose sins are taken away by the blood of Jesus.

None of those people fall into that category, except possibly Ananias and Sapphira, who may have been born again, though there's nothing in the way they are referred to that makes me think they were.
In any case, scripture doesn't say God killed them, it just says they died.

Yes, a while back someone had made this the topic of a thread and asked the question if God had killed them. My answer then is the same as now; there is absolutely no reason, 0 evidence, that God is the reason why they were killed. There was no thunderbolt from heaven, there was no statement made accusing God of killing them, and there was never any affirmation given that God killed them or sent an angel to do the wack job.

 

[SUNSTONE]

The sons of God are God's sons, the sons of disobedience are ...
the sons of disobedience!!!

Two utterly separate families.

2 questions.

1. Where does it say that unbelievers are sons?

2. When unbelievers and christians sin, will God only punish the unbeliever?

 

[SUNSTONE]

1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For (D)rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (E)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also (F)for conscience' sake. Romans 13

 

[KleinerApfel]

2 questions.

1. Where does it say that unbelievers are sons?

2. When unbelievers and christians sin, will God only punish the unbeliever?

This topic is the non-punishment of believers.

If you want to talk about whether God punishes unbelievers, start your own thread and I'm sure lost of us will join you there.

 

[SUNSTONE]

The abused wife is a very good example, it outlines how Christians get into bondage because they have this mistaken delusion that holiness comes from adherence to a set of external standards.

True holiness happens because we allow the Holy Spirit access to the most deepest areas of our lives and allow him to change us from within. Our walk changes because of what the Holy Spirit is doing in us.

No it's an extremely poor example.
The abused wife = a christian sinning, doing evil
The abusive husband = God punishing misbehaving children

The abused wife is someone who is abused for no good reason.
God punishing someone for doing evil is a very good reason.
Big time difference in what the bible teaches about punishment and an abusive husband example.

And I never said that we need to be good to earn our way into heaven.
Every time I post for people to do good and turn from wickedness, people always try to twist my words as if I'm saying "earn your way into heaven".

 

[nephilimiyr]

the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobediance

What do you do with that verse then?

Easy:

2 Corinthians 5:16-17, So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

We all once were the sons and daughters of disobedience, but the new has come and we're no longer to see ourselves according what what has gone but by what has come.



Ephesians 2:3-5, All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved.

1 Thessalonians 5:9, For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through out Lord Jesus Christ.

And what do you do with these verses SUNSTONE?

 

[SUNSTONE]

Easy:

2 Corinthians 5:16-17, So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

We all once were the sons and daughters of disobedience, but the new has come and we're no longer to see ourselves according what what has gone but by what has come.



Ephesians 2:3-5, All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved.

1 Thessalonians 5:9, For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through out Lord Jesus Christ.

And what do you do with these verses SUNSTONE?

I don't pick and choose which verses to follow so that I can justify a selfish lifestyle of sin.

1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For (D)rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (E)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also (F)for conscience' sake. Romans 13


Balance

 

[KleinerApfel]

I don't pick and choose which verses to follow so that I can justify a selfish lifestyle of sin.

And neither does anyone else here want to justify sin, and some of us resent your holier than thou attitude condemning us and telling us we're selfish and full of sin.

 

[KleinerApfel]

God declares us righteous because we are in Christ. He won't punish a righteous person.

 

[Tenebrae]

No it's an extremely poor example.
The abused wife = a christian sinning, doing evil
The abusive husband = God punishing misbehaving children

Thats how you are portraying God. It may not be your intent, however thats how its coming across. God waiting up in heaven with a big stick to punish us the minute we step out of line.

True holiness does not come as a result of adherance to a set of external standards. Grasp that and you can start living the life you were supposed to live

The abused wife is someone who is abused for no good reason.
God punishing someone for doing evil is a very good reason.
Big time difference in what the bible teaches about punishment and an abusive husband example.

And I never said that we need to be good to earn our way into heaven.
Every time I post for people to do good and turn from wickedness, people always try to twist my words as if I'm saying "earn your way into heaven".

It may not be how you are intending to come across, however every time I read your posts I am hearing someone saying that true holiness comes from an adherance to a set of external standards rather than allowing the Holy Spirit access to all areas of our life and allowing Him to change us from within.


I would hope the fact that numerous people get a similar message from your posts should perhaps encourage you to look at how you are communicating.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I don't pick and choose which verses to follow so that I can justify a selfish lifestyle of sin.

But you are showing yourself as picking and choseing by refusing to answer what you do with those passages.

"God does not appoint us to suffer wrath" is pretty cut and dry. The meaning of it is clear to see in my opinion, why do you ignor it?

I don't see you engaging in any kind of balance at all. You have made up your mind on what you want to believe based on acouple scriptures and refuse to look at anything else.

 

[Strong in Him]

Obedience comes as a result of allowing the Holy Spirit access to all areas of our lives, and allowing Him to change us from within.

And we who with unveiled faces reflect the Lord's glory, are being
transformed into his likeness with ever increasing glory which comes from the lord, who is the Spirit. (2 Cor 3:18)

It is not about trying to measure up to a set of external standards.

The latter reminds me of an abusive relationship. The abused wife cooks, cleans and toils to make sure that there will be nothing that will trigger her husbands displeasure and result in punishment. Like all abusibe relationships, the wife will never be able to work hard enough to please her husband, because abusive men dont generally need a vaild reason to abuse.

Or like that of the eldest son; you know - "all these years I have worked for you and you never gave me so much as a goat to have a party with my friends"?

If we work hard because we are afraid we will not be able to do enough to get to heaven, we have misunderstood sin and Grace, and are trying to earn our salvation.
If we work to serve God only because we are afraid he will punish us if we don't, we have misunderstood the cross and the relationship God wants to have with us.

Two verses that have already been quoted here; Jesus said,
"if you love me you will keep my commandments" and
"perfect love drives out fear because fear is to do with punishment."

If we are serving God out of fear, we are not serving him out of love.

The abused wife is a bad example.
A better example would be the lazy vineyard servants that neglected the vineyard.

How do you mean? That a christian who is not working hard for their salvation/trying to impress God and avoid punishment is like a lazy servant?

We do serve God out of love, but we are not mere servants - we are sons and daughters, heirs, royal princes and princesses. We serve our loving heavenly Father because we love him; we love him because he first loved us, and we delight to use the gifts he has given us in his service as an act of worship. At least, I do - I don't know about you.

The Holy Spirit does work on our hearts, but that doesn't mean everyone will listen and change.

The holy Spirit works in us to change us in to Jesus' image and likeness. He convicts us and leads us into truth. Thue, a Christian may try to resist him, not want to go where he is leading. But anyone who seriously wants to call Jesus LORD, will eventually want to submit to his Lordship.

No it's an extremely poor example.
The abused wife = a christian sinning, doing evil.

Someone said that being a Christian is not like someone working to try to live up to a set of external standards. They said that such an image is like that of an abused wife - i.e a wife who works her fingers to the bone to please her husband because she is scared that if everything is not just how he wants it - up to his standards - he will hit, or punish, her for it.

Unless I've got it wrong, it was your posts which made this forummer come up with the image of someone who is working for their husband out of fear. You are now saying that such a person is a Christian who is sinning, not only that - doing evil.

The abused wife is someone who is abused for no good reason.

But there will almost certainly be a good reason for it in the husband's mind - "she is not doing it right/making me angry/refusing to do as I say/questionning my judgement. If only she wouldn't provoke me, I wouldn't have to get cross," etc etc.

God punishing someone for doing evil is a very good reason.

God punished Jesus for our sins and will forgive us when we repent. We may still have to face the consequences, the punishment in law, the hurt we have caused someone else, but God will not do something like cause the death of a child because he is miffed that we slipped up again. If he did, we'd be in constant ill health and all our relatives would die off so quickly, the population of the world would rapidly dwindle.

And I never said that we need to be good to earn our way into heaven.
Every time I post for people to do good and turn from wickedness, people always try to twist my words as if I'm saying "earn your way into heaven".

But this is how your posts come across - that if we are ill or have a loved one die, then it is because we have sinned and are being punished; that if we do wrong, we can expect to be punished, and if we don't work hard enough that we are like lazy servants in the vineyard.

If several people on here think that you are saying in your posts that you will only get to heaven if you have earned it, and you are not saying that at all; it does suggest that maybe you're not communicating very clearly.

Tell me, what is God like, for you? Why did Jesus come, and what has he saved us from? What does it mean to you to be a Christian warrior?