New Posts

Hentenza · 2025-12-05T19:47:41-0600

BobRyan said:
Not true.

Adam did not "take God's name in vain"
Gen 6-7 shows that even the distinction between CLEAN vs UNCLEAN animals we observed before the flood

Irrelevant. No sabbath here.

BobRyan said:
And no command saying "Do not take God's name in vain" n Gen 1-10 either

Strawman. No one has argued against the 3rd commandment.

BobRyan said:
By not following the point from the very start you miss the entire post

Gen 2 has the Sabbath as even the Sabbath commandment of Ex 20:8-11 explicitly states in vs 11.

The point remains.

The point does not remain. No one kept the sabbath before Moses. There is no verse showing this. If you have one then by all means post it.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-05T19:46:31-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
I am not going to address the first part of your post because its been addressed multiple times in this thread. Even in the very post you are replying to, that our words do not delete Scripture. .

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Wow, we must have a complete different view of God. That God would give commandments that He judges people by James2:11-12 Mat5:19-30 Ecc12:13-14 Rev11:18-19 that can't be kept. Sadly, this really is an attack on His character. The God I serve gives us the power to keep them through Him and came to this earth to show us how to do so by example. Sadly most people only focus on His death and what He did for them and not focus on His life which tells us how we can receive His promises.

John 16:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So apparently God's commandments can be kept if we are abiding in Him. If one is believing they can't be kept I would spend more time in prayer asking for His help in overcoming.

The whole book of Revelations speaks of a people who overcomes and keeps God's commandments Rev14:12 sadly just a remnant Rev12:17 because most have been deceived either believing the devil has more power to keep us in sin, than God does to help us overcome or has edited the Testimony of God Exo31:18 Deut 4:13 that He promised not to Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19 and do not allow God to define sin1John3:4 Rom7:7, His Law Deut4:13 , His covenant Deut4:13 Heb8:10 Isa 56:6-7 2Cor3:3 and think they know better than He.

They show us our sin and what is righteousness right and wrong doing (Psa119:172) so we are not relying on our feelings to define this, so we go to Jesus ask ask His help in forsaking our sins Pro28:13 1John1:9 which meanings changing and turning from and becoming a new person in Christ Rom6:1-4, not continuing in the same path, where this is what we have to look forward to Heb10:26-30 instead of Rev22:14

I should have stated the obvious, but I assumed that Christians would already know that those who obey the commandments such as Abraham are all born again Christians. We can only obey after we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who leads us and enables us to obey.

Abraham was no different to me or anyone else, he was born dead in his sin just as the rest of us. God had to regenerate him, and give him the gift of His grace and then give him the gift of faith, or Abraham would remain spiritually dead forevermore. This is what we need to consider when we talk about obedience, only the elect of God will obey because we are imputed with the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.

God gave Abraham the gift of His grace and the gift of faith. He then became a born again Christian. So Abraham had nothing to do with his salvation and transformation from death to life, it was all of God from the beginning to the end.

The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace, and not by keeping the law or commandments. My sins are not counted against me because Christ has paid for all of my past, present and all future sins. He took them all upon Himself and became sin on my behalf so I won't be punished for any of them.

It's impossible to stop sinning while we are in this body of death, Paul even went so far as to say that he can't do the good that he wants to do, but he does the evil that he doesn't want t do. So that confirms that there's no way to get rid of the old nature. But thank God we are not saved by keeping the law or commandments, we are saved by grace and no amount of sin can cause us to lose our salvation.

I never chose to be saved, I was Gods enemy and I hated Him. I loved my sin and I was a slave of Satan, but God overpowered Satan and liberated me and took all of my sins and cast them behind His back. So I'm now free of guilt and the fear or judgement.

Hank77 · 2025-12-05T19:45:49-0600

SarahsKnight said:
Hank, you should have realized this about @Aryeh Jay a long time ago.

Yup, I forgot.

BobRyan · 2025-12-05T19:43:18-0600

BobRyan said:
Grace began in Gen 3, the moment Adam sinned , since God has stated that to was to die, and Adam lived over 900 years after he sinned.

The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant according to Jer 31 and according to Heb 8 and Heb 10.

"Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4, still even in the NT age.

So then , it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" just as it always was.

Dan Perez said:
And just where did you see the word. GRACE //. CHARIS in. Gen 3. ?? ARE YOU ADDING TO Gen 3. ??

Most people know the actual meaning of grace so they know it when they see it in Gen 3. Adam and Eve are not killed immediately as God's warning in chapter 2 clearly indicated even in Eve's own statement at the start of 3.

The entire argument of the serpent in 3 is that God's warning was mere bluff as proven by the demonstration that eating the tree did not at all produce the instant death that was conveyed as the punishment.

Its the very simplest basics of the chapter that we are discussing at this point.

The story would have ended instantly when Eve ate the fruit were it not for grace that we see in the chapter.

Valletta · 2025-12-05T19:41:35-0600

“Minnesota is openly and blatantly defying our rules, plain and simple,” said FMCSA Administrator Derek D. Barrs. “Under the Trump Administration, states have two choices: meet our standards or face the consequences. Following the law is not optional.”

Admin Uncovers Foreign Trucker Illegal License Operation in Minnesota

A third of Minnesota's non-domiciled CDLs reviewed in a recent audit were illegally issued, Transportation Sec. Sean Duffy announced Monday.

www.breitbart.com

Expect resistance.

Dreyma · 2025-12-05T19:38:28-0600

Dreyma said:
I liked A Separate Peace. I enjoy the prestigious-school-with-intense-friendships-and-rivalries "genre," so I'm gonna read another book in the same vein, Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld. (Though, judging by the review on the cover, this one might feature more identity politics than what I prefer.)

Synopsis from Amazon:

"Lee Fiora is an intelligent, observant fourteen-year-old when her father drops her off in front of her dorm at the prestigious Ault School in Massachusetts. She leaves her animated, affectionate family in South Bend, Indiana, at least in part because of the boarding school’s glossy brochure, in which boys in sweaters chat in front of old brick buildings, girls in kilts hold lacrosse sticks on pristinely mown athletic fields, and everyone sings hymns in chapel.

As Lee soon learns, Ault is a cloistered world of jaded, attractive teenagers who spend summers on Nantucket and speak in their own clever shorthand. Both intimidated and fascinated by her classmates, Lee becomes a shrewd observer of—and, ultimately, a participant in—their rituals and mores. As a scholarship student, she constantly feels like an outsider and is both drawn to and repelled by other loners. By the time she’s a senior, Lee has created a hard-won place for herself at Ault. But when her behavior takes a self-destructive and highly public turn, her carefully crafted identity within the community is shattered.

Ultimately, Lee’s experiences–complicated relationships with teachers; intense friendships with other girls; an all-consuming preoccupation with a classmate who is less than a boyfriend and more than a crush; conflicts with her parents, from whom Lee feels increasingly distant, coalesce into a singular portrait of the painful and thrilling adolescence universal to us all."

Prep is a terrible book. It has no plot! I wish I would've known that before I wasted my time reading 200+ pages, waiting and hoping for SOMETHING of importance/interest to happen.

Now I must consult my TBR list and decide on a new book to read.

BobRyan · 2025-12-05T19:34:59-0600

GloryToHisName said:
Dual-Cycle Layer
Daniel 9:24 declares:

> “Seventy weeks are divided out” (נֶחְתַּךְ)
This verb indicates partition, not a single uninterrupted span.

Daniel 9:25 includes the internal marker:
> Weeks 60, the second (שָׁבוּעַ 60 הַשֵּׁנִי)

This identifies the 60th week within the second cycle, not the beginning of it. The second cycle therefore begins earlier and advances toward that marker.

Truly a novel reading of the chapter.
Thanks for helping me see how that suggestion unfolds.

Historically, figures like Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and later Protestant reformers emphasized the Messiah's coming within this single 490 year timeline.

Vs 25 "70 weeks have been cut off" is a reference to the fact that the Angel shows up in Dan 9 to give "an explanation of the vision previously written as Dan chapter 8. So then Dan 9 is a much needed help for Dan 8. At the end of chapter 8 Daniel complains that it is not explained.

Dan 9 verse 25 says in essence that the first 70 weeks (490 years ) of the 2300 year timeline in chapter 8, are devoted to details regarding the coming of the Messiah in the first century AD>

Dreyma · 2025-12-05T19:33:47-0600

Tom D said:
This is a great thread.
It's good to read books that offer knowledge or new insights or healing.

Contrary to what people think, stories are a great tool for spreading knowledge or insights or healing, much better than articles or essays.
Stories are more powerful than articles and essays, much more.
Didn't you hear pastors and priests often started each sermon with a story?
And 'The Da Vinci code' led some Christians to abandon their faith and changed people's perceptions of organised religion -- although it's only a FICTION. Yes, only a story.

I completely agree.

Funnily enough, a guy at work just yesterday told me, "I don't read fiction. I don't want to get what's story mixed up with what's reality." I think he's missing out! Stories always mirror reality in some way, either the world we live in or the nature of the human heart.

AV1611VET · 2025-12-05T19:27:05-0600

jacks said:
Just a note: Not all scientists believe life formed on its own.

For those that do, what alternative do they have? If you rule out any sort of creative force all you are left with is chance. I don't believe there is any "undeniable proof or facts" to give them, just as they don't have proof that life formed on it's own. So what we are left with is a choice of what to believe. We are all free to make that choice.

Hey, jacks! :wave:

Dan Perez · 2025-12-05T19:23:27-0600

Guojing said:
Interesting how you lump words together to assume they are referring to the exact same thing.

So, in your point of view, all the OT saints are in heaven now, alright.

Hi DAVE and there are three mentions pf PARADISE

# 1 ABRHAM BOSOM

# 2 The the thief on. the cross where CHRIST said today thou shall be with me in. Paridise to n. ABRAHAM BOSOM

# 3. AND IN. 2 Cor 12:5 which has noting to do with ABRAHAMS BOSOM

# 4 And in ISA 5:14 HELL has enlarged it self

# 5 AND HELL HAS MANY COMPARTMENTS CALLED

# A. HELL

# B HADES

# C. SHEOL

# D GEHENNA

# E. ABYSS

# F. OUTER DAKENESS

# G BOTTEMLESS PIT

# H. LAKE OF FIRE

# I. TARTANUS

BUT 2 COR 12:5 has nothing to do with with the above as it speaks to the BODY OF CHRIST !!

dan p

Tom D · 2025-12-05T19:17:46-0600

I learned today that a great drink for fighting cold and flu during winter is ginger tea.

ThatRobGuy · 2025-12-05T19:16:19-0600

There's two different facets of this discussion.

A) Equality under the law

B) Cultural implications

A - is pretty cut and dry, if they're flat out saying they would have no issues with a Methodist or Lutheran Church/School doing the same, but they don't want a Muslim Church/School doing it, then that's a pretty clear case of unequal application of the law, and they're in the wrong.

B - this one's a little more murky.

1) Because even though it's not politically correct to say out loud, the reality is that Islam does come bundled with some certain hostilities toward non-Muslims. (however, to dovetail that into point A, you could probably find some instances where that's true of other religions that operate schools as well)

2) If a deeply conservative Christian religious entity had their eyes set on expansion in a traditionally progressive area, does anyone think that would happen without significant pushback?

While this example isn't perfect "feature parity", it does highlight an example of where progressive areas are willing to "fight" against groups that don't share the same values of the region.

Per NPR/PBS:

Boy Scouts on the Verge of Losing California Tax Breaks | KQED

California lawmakers are on the verge of passing bill that would punish groups for LGBT discrimination.

www.kqed.org

California hasn't been shy about using institutional power to limit the influence of groups or organizations that cut against their values via preferential access to regulatory frameworks.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-12-05T19:09:06-0600

samaus123456789 said:
The church in Ephesus can be founded shortly after people from Ephesus on Pentecost go back to their home country, and start a church in 33 AD. Revelation internally it is written pre 70 AD so I reject any idea it was written after that.

I know you are talking to me, but you're not quoting me to make that clear. Why is that?

It seems that you just believe what you want to believe regardless of what the evidence shows. The evidence indicates that the church in Ephesus was established around 51 AD, not shortly after people from Ephesus returned home from Pentecost. Scholars estimate that when Paul visited Ephesus, as recorded in Acts 19, it was around 50 AD. They had no established church before that.

samaus123456789 said:
The type of persecution (synagogue only in Rev 2:9, 3:9, no Roman except for Pergamon where the Roman politicians can kill anyone they want, exiling Christians which aligns with Claudius) aligns with early persecution not Nero, and not Domitian.

From what I read about how things were in the 1st century in the Roman province of Asia, the persecution that occurred there was specifically linked to the issues described in Revelation (emperor worship, economic pressure, martyrdom) and that is largely attributed to the period around Domitian's rule.

samaus123456789 said:
No he did not want to say " I know the person that wrote Revelation" as that would be boasting kind of like someone today saying "I know the person that started bitcoin" or some other big brag that hardly anyone would know the answer to. There is no internal problem with me believing Paul is referencing John that wrote Rev 41 AD.

Read all of 2 Corinthians 12 and you could see he spoke a lot about himself not wanting to boast. Why would he talk about himself like that if he was not talking about himself in verses 2 to 4? He didn't want to explicitly say that he was talking about himself because he didn't want to come across as boasting. He indicated in verse 5 that if he was talking about someone else, he would boast about that person. But, the fact that he talked about his own desire not to boast was him clearly implying that he was talking about himself without wanting to say it explicitly.

samaus123456789 said:
" 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast" He is boasting about someone else.

You're ignoring everything else that is said in the passage where he clearly is referring to himself. Why would he talk about himself not wanting to boast so much in the passage if he wasn't talking about himself? What he was saying in verse 5 is that if it was someone else he would boast about that person, but he would not boast about himself. That's why he did not want to reveal that he was talking about himself in verses 2 to 4. He didn't want to come across as boasting. But, he strongly hinted that he was talking about himself throughout the passage, as I showed. You didn't address anything I said about the context of the passage in 2 Corinthians 12.

Lily76_ · 2025-12-05T19:05:16-0600

I live in Scotland and there is street peaching but very rare . Some churches offer tea's and coffees to people. We have Teen Challenge that helps anyone with additions and homelessness. There are Christian rehabs etc., Churches open to the poor and needy, even helping people with mental health issues and money problems. Food banks warm spaces, hot food, children's activities, and baby and parent's group.
Refugees to help them learn English and even bible study in their language, some fleeing persecution for being Christian. . i got to recovery church every week , and i love being there and helping them out and really caring about people who like myself have had an addiction for most of their lives and recovering from that you feel supported and loved . Sometimes the smallest things can help some to return or become Christians.

RileyG · 2025-12-05T19:05:04-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
It was Southern Baptist. (although, that was transition that happened a few years before they started going there...that particular Church was once a "Free Will Baptist" church, which...I apologize if this causes any offense, is a counter-intuitive name if you're familiar with that denomination, and a lot of the "old guard" was still there).

It was one of those places where people had to be on the lookout, outside of church. Because being spotted in public breaking one of the rules could get you booted. (for instance, another member sees you out in public with a beer in your hand, or overhears you saying a "cuss word" at a grocery store, etc... they tell the pastor, and boom, you're gone)

Like I said, eventually they did end up in just a more normal Baptist church, but that wasn't until I was around 16-17 and they had already given me the option to not go.

Which part of that may have been just to avoid headaches...according to them, I had something of a reputation for "asking the wrong kinds of questions" in Children's Sunday School back when I was a wee lad. Evidently asking things that delved into predeterminism, or things like "if it's all sin, why are there tougher rules about certain ones?" in front of other 11-13 year olds was frowned upon.

Ah, thanks for the info! I’m aware of the free will Baptists and other Baptist denominations. I’m aware of some differences between them.

ThatRobGuy said:
Actually, many Pentecostal churches (especially in the rural areas) don't allow dancing (even at weddings), and the only form of dancing allowed is the movements made when "consumed by the holy spirit" (similar to their speaking in tongues thing they do)

But the apologetics discussions on here are somewhat frowned upon, so I'll just leave it at that lol.

That’s very true, but Pentecostalism has multiple denominations as well. I think it depends how strict the adherent is.

Thanks for the info!

Peace

jas3 · 2025-12-05T18:52:50-0600

martinlb said:
Talking in a manner that's distinctly different from normal isn't the same thing as being quiet in a movie theater.

That's not the comparison I was making. Calling someone "your honor" is weird in everyday life, but is perfectly acceptable and even expected in court. Calling your friend "sir" would be weirdly formal, but it's appropriate when addressing a superior or a stranger. We use different levels of formality, different kinds of language, based on our circumstances.

LoricaLady · 2025-12-05T18:49:54-0600

What does persecution look like in Tajikistan?
Tajikistan is a former Soviet state. Despite now officially having freedom of religion, the reality is different.

The state still imposes restrictions on religious gatherings and activities—mainly to contain Islamist extremism. But the rules and surveillance affect Christians too, and the state is becoming increasingly wary of and hostile toward them.

There are many elements to the Christian life that are illegal without a permit, from holding a religious meeting to printing religious literature.

Anyone under age 18 is not allowed to attend church services, and Christians are not allowed to share their faith. In recent years, church meetings have increasingly been raided by the authorities, with church members being interrogated for hours at a time and pressured to inform on others.

They can be detained, fined or imprisoned. As a result, the risk of persecution has driven many Christians underground.

There are strict laws about religious education, so training church leaders is a problem. Much of the country is Muslim, and believers who come from this background face rejection, humiliation and possible violence from their families and communities.

Who is most vulnerable to persecution?

Rights violations targeting all Christian communities and carried out by government officials can occur all over the country. Pressure from family, friends and community on converts is stronger outside the urban areas.

Meet 'Khasan'
For two weeks, we were summoned every day to the state intelligence service. They threatened, frightened and insulted us. But I thank God because we were able to testify about our faith in Jesus Christ ... Let’s pray for those people who oppressed us so that they would know the truth.
KHASAM, CENTRAL ASIA

What has changed this year?
Tajikistan jumped seven positions on this year's World Watch List. Pressure increased across all areas for believers, and violence went up as well. Christians face challenges and pressure from their communities and families, and the government imposes many restrictions on church activities.

What does Open Doors do to help Christians in Tajikistan?
Open Doors strengthens the church in Central Asia* by providing relief aid, Bibles, ministry training, prayer support, vocational training and business microloans, as well as projects such as rehab centres.

* For security reasons, the name of Open Doors cannot be associated with certain activities in this country. When communicating about projects in this country do not use the country name, instead use the region name: Central Asia.
How can you pray for Tajikistan?

Christians who meet in house churches can face monitoring from authorities and government raids. Pray that these believers can worship together without fear.
Pray for a change in heart for government officials, so that they will stop infringing on religious freedom.
Ask God to protect evangelists and other Christian workers who bring God’s Word and other Christian resources to His people in Tajikistan.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-05T18:44:44-0600

It only had one fulfillment and ended 70-73 AD. The masoretic is probably the least closest to the original compared to the LXX too.

Valletta · 2025-12-05T18:43:18-0600

CLEEB said:
There is still a remnant of the church that is basically invisible to professing Christianity. Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Matthew 16:18 By the way Peter isn’t the rock, the foundation of this church, Jesus is. You are right about today’s churches. GOD calls people out of them not into them. 2 Corinthians 6:17

Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[e] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” RSVCE

Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. The name given to Simon Peter by Jesus is the Aramaic "Kepha," transliterated into "Cephas." "Kepha" means "Rock" in Aramaic. This Aramaic name is preserved within the Koine Greek Biblical text. Thus Jesus said "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church." That is, Jesus used Rock twice in the same sentence. Had Jesus wished to show what you contend he simply could have said "I am Jesus and on this Rock I will build my Church." God renaming someone, such as Abram to Abraham, often comes at an important moment in Biblical history.

AV1611VET · 2025-12-05T18:41:10-0600

JohnB445 said:
What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

Yes.

Dying and claiming we never knew of Him isn't going to cut it.

I know it sounds harsh, but I believe God gives us enough information in our lives to know Him, and to realize our need for repentance unto salvation (Psalm 19).

jacks · 2025-12-05T18:32:18-0600

You're fine. We all feel distant or detached from God at times. God's presence can be very subtle, so much so we might not even notice it. Try just being still and listen for that small voice. When you don't hear it, don't worry just keep listening.

Then the LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain before the LORD. Behold, the LORD is about to pass by.”
And a great and mighty wind tore into the mountains and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake there was a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.

And after the fire came a still, small voice.

1 Kings 19 11-12

GloryToHisName · 2025-12-05T18:31:16-0600

GloryToHisName said:
Summary
Christian Widener contends that Daniel 9:24-27 outlines two distinct seventy-week (490-year) timelines—one fulfilled in Israel’s ancient restoration (Ezra/Nehemiah → Messiah), and a second fulfilled via modern Israel’s restoration leading into the eschatological age. Below you’ll find my translation (Hebrew above each English line), with grammar notes and a timeline chart for both cycles.

---

Daniel 9:24-27 — Hebrew + English (My Translation, Exact Wording)

v.24

עַל־ נֶחְתַּךְ שִׁבְעִים שָׁבֻעִים עַל־עַמְּךָ וְעַל־עִיר קָדְשְׁךָ
There are divided out seventy weeks for your holy city and your people's rebellion,
לְכַלֵּא חַטָּאת וּלְחָתֵם וּלְכַפֵּר עָוֹן
for the restraining of lawlessness, which is marked out for the coming punishment of purging,
חָזוֹן וּלְחָתֵם עֹלָמִים צֶדֶק וְלִמְשֹׁחַ קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים
for the sealing of the vision and the prophet unto the age of righteousness; and it is when the holy of holies will be anointed.

Grammar note (v.24):

נֶחְתַּךְ (Niphal Perfect of חתך) means “cut off/divided,” hence rendered “divided out” to reflect partitioned sequences.

The sequence of infinitives (restrain → seal → purge → bring in righteousness → anoint) indicates successive divine purposes—matching a two-phase fulfilment.

---

v.25

תֵּדַע תַּשְׂכֵּל וְתֵדַע מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלַ͏ִם
This prophecy to some shall be made understood and known from the word that went forth for the restoration and building of Jerusalem,
נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ לִירוּשָׁלַ͏ִם שָׁבוּעִים שִׁבְעָה תִּבָּנֶה
for a ruler and an anointed one for Jerusalem; it shall take the weeks, seven sevens, for it to be built,
וְתָשׁוּב בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים וְצוֹק וְחָרוּץ בְּרְחוֹב בָּעִתִּים
and it shall be returned at the second sixty; and anguish and diligence will be in their streets in those times.

Grammar note (v.25):

מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר (“from the coming forth of a word”) echoes v.23 — Gabriel’s commission — setting a divine “going out.”

בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים (“at the second sixty”) clearly signals a second marker, supporting a dual-cycle model.

The apposition נָגִיד / מָשִׁיחַ (“ruler and anointed one”) allows human (type) or Messianic reference.

---

v.26

וּשְׁנַיִם וּשִׁשִּׁים שָׁבוּעִים אַחֲרֵי יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ וְאֵין לוֹ
Two and sixty weeks after—none but not being for the Messiah will be cut off,
וְעַם-נָגִיד יָבוֹא בַּשֶּׁטֶף וְהָעִיר וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ יִשָּׁחְתּוּ
and the people of the ruler shall come like a flood; the city and the sanctuary shall be destroyed.

Grammar note (v.26):

וְאֵין לוֹ (“none for him”) indicates exclusion of those not aligned with the Anointed One (Acts 3:23; Romans 11).

בַּשֶּׁטֶף (“with a flood”) conveys large-scale invasion/destruction — both historical and typological.

---

v.27

וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים שָׁבוּעַ וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ
And the many of the covenant He shall cause to prevail for the week and a half of one,
וְעַל מִנְחָה וְזֶבַח יַשְׁבִּית שִׁקּוּצִים עַל-כְּנַף וְעַד הַכָּלָה תִּתַּךְ עַל-שֹׁמֵם
and upon offering and sacrifice He shall bring to an end abominations even upon wings, until the one who makes desolate pours out what is decreed for the consummation.

Grammar note (v.27):

וְהִגְבִּיר (Hiphil Perfect of גָּבַר) = “cause to prevail,” indicating active empowerment rather than treaty.

וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ (“and a half of one”) marks a defined midpoint in the week, enabling division into 10½ years + remaining half-week.

“Upon the offering, abominations shall cease” points to the prophetic Day of Atonement (Lev 16), when cleansing and judgment are completed. The Body of Christ, as a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1), fulfills this through suffering and testimony (Rev 6:9–11) until its vindication and catching up (Rev 12:5). The “wings” signify divine preservation and the wilderness refuge (Rev 12:14).

---

Interpretive Summary & Cross-References

Many of the covenant = Israel + faithful remnant prevailing against enemies.

The cutting off of v.26 = rejection/ exclusion of unbelieving Israel (Acts 3:23; Romans 11).

Week and a half of one = ~10½ years of prevailing before the Tribulation and the Day of the Lord begins.

Abominations = idolatrous temple desecration + persecution of the saints (Ezekiel 8-9; Revelation 12).

Major historical markers: 457 BC (decree), Messiah’s death ~33 AD, temple destroyed 70 AD, Jerusalem walls restored under Suleiman ~1542 CE, Jerusalem returned 1967 CE.

---

Dual-Cycle Timeline (My Model)

First 70 Weeks – Ancient Fulfillment

7 weeks (49 yrs): 457 BC to 408 BC → Decree to build → completion under Ezra/Nehemiah

62 weeks (434 yrs): 408 BC → 26 AD → Prophetic preparation → arrival of Messiah

1 week (7 years): 26–33 AD → Messiah begins His ministry → the covenant people are cut off through unbelief → Christ completes His redemptive mission → first 70 fulfilled

Post-week: temple destroyed 70 AD

Second 70 Weeks – Modern Fulfillment (~490 yrs)

Beginning “word went forth”: ~1542 CE (Suleiman’s restoration of walls of Jerusalem)

“Second sixty” marker: 1967 CE (return of Jerusalem)

Week and a half (~10½ yrs): 2018 → ~2028/2029 CE — Israel and the covenant people prevail over enemies

Remaining half-week (~3½ yrs): ~2029 → ~2033 CE — Tribulation / Day of the Lord begins → abomination ends → consummation poured out.

Chart
═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
✶✶ DANIEL’S TWO SEVENTY-WEEK PROPHECY CYCLES ✶✶
═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

FIRST CYCLE — EZRA TO MESSIAH (COVENANT PEOPLE CUT OFF)
─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
457 BCE → “Word went forth” for restoration and rebuilding
• Word from God concerning total restoration
• Ezra raised up as the anointed one; Nehemiah joins as ruler

408 BCE → Completion of wall and city renewal under Nehemiah
• 7 weeks (49 years) fulfilled

↓ 62 weeks (434 years)

26–33 CE → Appearance of the Anointed Ruler (Messiah)
• People of the covenant reject Him
• Those *not for Him are cut off* (corporate cutting-off of unbelieving Jews)

70 CE → Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple
• Judgment follows the rejection — first 70 cycle completed

SECOND CYCLE — SULEIMAN TO THE END OF THE AGE
─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
1542 CE → Word goes forth again: Suleiman rebuilds Jerusalem’s walls
• Beginning of the second seventy-week sequence (490 years)

1967 CE → Jerusalem returned to Israel (key prophetic hinge)
• The second 60th week, marker of the second cycle

2023 CE → “Flood war” — people of the ruler that shall come
• Hasmas / Islamic Jihad war begins, foreshadowing final conflict

2025 CE → Beginning of the 70th week (final 7 years)
• Covenant people prevail at first; rise of end-time opposition

2028.5 CE → Mid-point of the final week (3½ years in)
• Their power is broken; persecution intensifies (cf. Dan 12:7)

2032 CE → End of the 70th week (1542 + 490 = 2032)
• Purging complete; holy place anointed; kingdom age / age of righteousness begins
═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
---

How This Supports Christian Widener’s Theory

Widener states: “Daniel’s seventy-week prophecy properly understood repeats in two fulfillments…” (The Temple Revealed in the Garden, p. 134)

He emphasizes archaeological inscription evidence of the 16th-century rebuilding of Jerusalem (The Temple Revealed in Creation, p. 57).

My grammatical analysis shows the text can support two cycles: נֶחְתַּךְ (“given out in two”), בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים (“at the second sixty”), and וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ (“half the week”) all indicate division of time.

While Widener uses dates and history, this reading uses grammatical syntax to validate dual-fulfilment.

---

Morph Table 2 — Key Lexical Forms

Hebrew FormRootStemGloss / Function

נֶחְתַּךְחתךNiph. Perf.“given out / divided”
לְכַלֵּאכלאPiel Inf.“restrain / confine”
חַטָּאתחטאNoun“lawlessness / sin”
וּלְחָתֵםחתםQal Inf.“to seal / mark out”
עָוֹןעוןNoun“punishment / guilt”
צֶדֶקצדקNoun“righteousness”
וְלִמְשֹׁחַמשׁחQal Inf.“to anoint”
נָגִידנגדNoun“ruler / leader”
מָשִׁיחַמשׁחNoun“anointed one / Messiah”
וְהִגְבִּירגברHiph. Perf.“cause to prevail”
וַחֲצִיחציNoun“half / midpoint of the week”
שִׁקּוּצִיםשקץNoun pl.“abominations”
שֹׁמֵםשׁמםPart.“desolator”

---

Final Question for Hebrew-Grammar Experts

Given these forms—especially נֶחְתַּךְ (“given out in two”), בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים (“at the second sixty”), and וַחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ (“half the week”)—does the Hebrew syntax of Daniel 9:24-27 provide a strong linguistic basis for reading two distinct seventy-week cycles (ancient + modern) as Widener proposes and as my timeline outlines?
If yes—please identify the most compelling grammatical features.
If no—please point out the constraints (word order, semantics, singular forms, scope of ׳וְאֵין לוֹ׳) that favour a single continuous 490-year timeline.

Thank you in advance for your grammar-based analysis. I look forward to your insights.

Daniel 9:25 — Interpreting “Messiah the Prince”

The phrase “the Messiah the Prince” in Daniel 9:25 is intentionally multilevel in meaning. When the seventy weeks are read as divided into two 70 week cycles within the text itself, the Hebrew grammar allows the title to operate simultaneously on Messianic, historical, and dual-cycle levels without contradiction.

---

Daniel 9:25 — Translation

> “Know and understand from the going forth of the word to **build** and **restore** Jerusalem for an anointed one and a ruler, seven sevens; weeks 60, the second; and again it shall be returned and built, with anguish and diligence in its streets in those times.”

---

Hebrew Nuance — נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ

The phrase נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ (nagid u-mashiach) permits two grammatical readings:

1) Single figure — Anointed Ruler
A unified King-Priest typology: mashiach (anointed one) + nagid (ruler).

2) Two figures — Anointed One and Ruler
The conjunction וּ (“and”) allows distinction of roles.
Daniel 9:26 confirms this separation:

> “The people of the ruler who is to come…”

Thus the Ruler is distinguishable from the Anointed One in the prophetic flow.

---

Three-Layer Structure

Messianic Layer

Christ fulfills both titles in unity:

Anointed One — Messiah

Ruler — King

The prophecy centers on His appearing within the first cycle and His authority extending beyond it.

---

Dual-Cycle Layer

Daniel 9:24 declares:

> “Seventy weeks are divided out” (נֶחְתַּךְ)

This verb indicates partition, not a single uninterrupted span.

Daniel 9:25 includes the internal marker:

> Weeks 60, the second (שָׁבוּעַ 60 הַשֵּׁנִי)

This identifies the 60th week within the second cycle, not the beginning of it. The second cycle therefore begins earlier and advances toward that marker.

Under this reading:

First 70 week cycle culminates in Christ as the anointed ruler, starting from the *building*.

Second 70 week cycle begins with the **restoration** of Jerusalem under Suleiman as the ruler in (1542). (In the reading the anointed one is Christ and remains in the first 70)

Its 60th week corresponds to the modern return of Jerusalem.

Its final week concludes with the kingdom’s establishment.

---

Historical (Persian) Layer

The prophecy also functions inside Persian history:

Cyrus = Anointed One (Isaiah 45:1)

Artaxerxes = Ruler (nagid) issuing the command in Ezra-Nehemiah

Hebrew confirmation:

> מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר — “from the going forth of the word”

This phrase denotes divine authorization rather than a merely civil edict.

---

Timeline (Integrated)

First Cycle — Ancient Fulfillment

457 BC — Word goes forth (Artaxerxes)
7 weeks (49 yrs) → Jerusalem rebuilt under Nehemiah
62 weeks (434 yrs) → Messiah revealed
Final week: AD 26–33
Mid-week: Christ crucified
AD 70 — City and Temple destroyed

---

Second Cycle — Restoration Pattern

1542 — Suleiman rebuilds Jerusalem walls
60th week reached — Jerusalem regained
Final week: 2025–2032
Mid-week (3½ yrs): covenant broken, persecution intensifies
Kingdom consummated at the decreed end.

---

Structural Markers

Hebrew PhraseMeaning

נֶחְתַּךְDivided / apportioned
שָׁבוּעַ 60 הַשֵּׁנִי60th week of second cycle
וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַMidpoint of final week
נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַUnified or dual subject
מִן־מֹצָא דָבָרDivine decree

---

Summary

LayerAnointed OneRulerFulfillment

MessianicChristChristEternal
Dual-CycleChristSuleimanRestoration
PersianCyrusArtaxerxesFoundation

---

Conclusion

Daniel 9:25 is deliberately multivalent. The Hebrew syntax permits singular or dual identity, the structure divides the weeks into cycles, and history confirms both. The prophecy unfolds in layers: Persian inauguration, Messianic fulfillment, and later restoration — culminating in the decreed end.

LoricaLady · 2025-12-05T18:18:26-0600

Nigerian pastor dies in captivity,

An Anglican priest in Nigeria who was abducted with his wife and daughter is understood to have died in captivity, Morning Star News has reported.

Rev Edwin Achi was kidnapped in October with his wife, Sarah Achi, and daughter in Kaduna state. Leaders of the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) did not say how he died, but it is believed that his abductors had demanded a ransom of 600 million naira (£315,000).

They said that his death was ‘a painful loss to the entire diocese, the clergy, the church family and all who were blessed by his faithful ministry, humble spirit and unwavering devotion to the service of God’.

Pray for the release of Rev Achi’s wife and daughter and for the many other Christians who have been kidnapped in Nigeria.

Last month gunmen abducted 303 students from a boarding school in Niger state, according to the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN). About 50 of them escaped shortly afterwards, according to the local CAN chapter.

Central Asia

Release International’s partner in Central Asia supports gospel ministry and church-planting in areas where Christians are often persecuted.

Pray for Pastor Pavel Shreider who remains in prison in Kyrgyzstan, serving a three-year sentence on charges of ‘inciting racial, ethnic, national, religious or regional hatred.’ He denies all charges and is preparing to appeal. He has brain injuries that have left him cognitively impaired, and has developed encephalopathy, having been tortured by the secret police.

Pray for Kyrgyzstan after restrictions against freedom of religion and belief came into effect in February. Pray that Christians and churches would stand strong in this difficult environment and that their faith would deepen.

Pray for God’s wisdom for church leaders in the region who reject, on principle, any registration of their congregations with government authorities. In Central Asian countries, such unregistered gatherings are considered a violation of state laws.

martinlb · 2025-12-05T18:14:51-0600

No-one kmows. What we do know is that all around us there will be prople claiming it's here. It's not, and won't be until the man of lawlessness appears. And that appearance won't be up for debate whether it's happening or not.

New Posts

New Posts

Filter

Forum statistics

Share this page