The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has set us free from the law of sin and death?

[oikonomia]

The title of this thread is from Romans 8:2.

For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2) (Recovery Version)

I am having a little trouble seeing what significant differences there are between a couple of posters.
Particularly, I'd like to know how two posters would answer the questions below with a simple (simple) affirmation or not.
Poster HIM and poster Studyman.

Who believes that the law of Moses has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

Who believes that the law of the Spirit of life has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

 

[Grip Docility]

In my understanding the Jesus of the Bible “IS” the Rock on which I am to build my house. He instructed me to not just hear His instruction, but to do them, because those who hear His Sayings, but do not "do" them, are not building their house on the Rock, and will not stand in That Day.

Can you show me even ONE example of an obedient faithful person in the Bible, who didn't understand Moses?

Adam, Abel, Abraham, Seth, Enosh, Kennon, Mahalale, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Tarah, Abram who is known as Abraham... Isaac .... Jacob .... Joseph

None of these men were under the LAW of MOSES, yet The Very PRESENCE of God was sufficient for them. They were saved by FAITH, yet Awaited the Promise... until Jesus.

Moses and Jesus are TWO separate Covenants. The Indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ is far more sufficient. Paul does not disagree with me. Is the Law bad? Absolutely not, yet.... a far superior Measure is available to us. The Laws Purpose is to show us our NEED FOR JESUS. That is Paul's Gospel point. Saying otherwise, re-crucifies Christ.

Galatians 5:1 Christ has liberated us to be free. Stand firm then and don’t submit again to a yoke of slavery.

In Galatians 4, Paul specifies that what was born on Mount Sanai creates SLAVES. Slaves do not inherit the Kingdom, per Paul! I am trying very hard to gently exalt Dependence and Surrender to Jesus Christ, Alone, not promote Lawlessness.

In fact, Paul calls those of the Law, Lawless. To be IN CHRIST is to be Justified, by the Law, through Christ's Work. To be IN the Law, is to be without Christ's Justification... thus one is Lawless. This is Paul's repetitive message. To the very Jews, Jesus, King of Jews, said... "My Yoke is Easy". Jesus was foreshadowing His work that "Fulfilled the Law". One cannot "Surrender" to Jesus, if yoked to another. Moses is not Jesus. The two covenants are distinct.

This is my opinion. All Love to you, Sibling in Him.

 

[Studyman]

Not in one of those verses in Deut 28 that speak of the curses, does it state that once you sin, sin will possess you and you will serve it because you can't help yourself.

Yes it does. Read it for yourself.

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

These curses, the result of Sin, AKA, "The Law of Sin", will possess you, enslave you, you won't be able to stop them because you can't help yourself. Isn't that what "overtake" means?

20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Rom. 7: 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

What happens to a man who transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions? Are they not cursed exactly as Paul describes, as defined in the Holy Scriptures?

I asked you questions, but to my frustration you refused to answer. Nevertheless, I will continue to ask. When did the Commandment come to Paul where sin revived, and he died? Before or after God through Ananias restored his sight? When was Paul doing what he knew was wrong? When he was holding the coats of the men who murdered Stephen, or after he humbled himself to serve the Law of God with his mind? You don't think Paul was pricked a little during this event? "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Yes, Paul knew it was wrong to murder an innocent man, but he consented anyway, he couldn't help himself. "What I hate, that I do". Vexation, cursing and astonishments of heart.

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest "receive thy sight", and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

But Him, who blinded Saul? Who vexed him in this way? And why was he overtaken, enslaved by this vexation, blindness?

Deut. 28: 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and "astonishment of heart":

When was Paul blinded?? Before he repented, or after?

You are promoting the religious philosophy that the vexation Paul was describing in Romans 7, being brought captive to the LAW of Sin, has nothing to do with the vexation God commanded would fall on men who sin in the Holy Scriptures. Even going so far as to call them irrelevant.

Your preaching in this matter is not truth according to Scriptures. Now you can continue to preserve and promote this philosophy if you want. But I have most certainly made the Biblical case against it. If you were to answer the questions I asked, you might see this as well, if God will let you.

I'm sorry you feel the jabs. I just want you to see the Scriptures posted.

 

[Studyman]

The title of this thread is from Romans 8:2.

For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2) (Recovery Version)

I am having a little trouble seeing what significant differences there are between a couple of posters.
Particularly, I'd like to know how two posters would answer the questions below with a simple (simple) affirmation or not.
Poster HIM and poster Studyman.

Who believes that the law of Moses has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

Who believes that the law of the Spirit of life has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

According to the Holy Scriptures, the Law of the Spirit of Life that was in Christ Jesus, was "God's Laws" that HE gave Moses.

What other Laws did Jesus walk in?

 

[Grip Docility]

According to the Holy Scriptures, the Law of the Spirit of Life that was in Christ Jesus, was "God's Laws" that HE gave Moses.

What other Laws did Jesus walk in?

God is the Law. This is why Paul declares that the Law is good, but then he goes on to explain the simple matter, in complex ways, because we are all difficult. God has the right to that law! Jesus is the Son of God. God is His Father. It is well for that Law to be "Within us". We are Son's of The SON. Jesus is all that we need. AGAIN, this does, not mean that Christ is a promoter of Sin. But, it does soften our response to others, as Jesus always did, except for... TOWARDS THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW. That should trip some serious Spiritual thoughts, within your mind.

 

[Studyman]

God is the Law. This is why Paul declares that the Law is good, but then he goes on to explain the simple matter, in complex ways, because we are all difficult. God has the right to that law! Jesus is the Son of God. God is His Father. It is well for that Law to be "Within us". We are Son's of The SON. Jesus is all that we need. AGAIN, this does, not mean that Christ is a promoter of Sin. But, it does soften our response to others, as Jesus always did, except for... TOWARDS THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW. That should trip some serious Spiritual thoughts, within your mind.

I prefer to stick with what the Scriptures actually say. I find no animosity from God or His Son regarding the "teachers of God's Laws". Moses and the Prophets are held in high regard by both the Father and the Son. There were those mainstream preachers of Jesus and Paul's time though, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.".

These men, according to the Jesus of the bible, taught "for doctrines the commandments of men.".

I agree that men who call Jesus Lord, but transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions, should really consider trusting the Scriptures to explain to them why this is. And then repent and turn to God as Paul instructs both Jew and Gentile to do.

I do Love the Scriptures.

 

[Grip Docility]

I prefer to stick with what the Scriptures actually say. I find no animosity from God or His Son regarding the "teachers of God's Laws". Moses and the Prophets are held in high regard by both the Father and the Son. There were those mainstream preachers of Jesus and Paul's time though, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.".

These men, according to the Jesus of the bible, taught "for doctrines the commandments of men.".

I agree that men who call Jesus Lord, but transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions, should really consider trusting the Scriptures to explain to them why this is. And then repent and turn to God as Paul instructs both Jew and Gentile to do.

I do Love the Scriptures.

Why do you think that condemnation scripture in Titus reads as it does? (Rhetorical, intended to evoke thought) Please answer me this question before we persist with more long dialogue. Who gave Jesus a hard time... Sinners, or the Teachers of the Law?

 

[oikonomia]

According to the Holy Scriptures, the Law of the Spirit of Life that was in Christ Jesus, was "God's Laws" that HE gave Moses.

What other Laws did Jesus walk in?

The law of the Spirit of life as a law is more like "the law of gravity."
The word "law" we see both in "the law of Moses" and in "the law of the Spirit of life".

But the sense is not the same in Paul's discourse.
The difference is the law as given by Moses is a demand upon Paul.
And "the law of the Spirit of life . . . in Christ Jesus" is a law as an automatic living force. It is dependably consistent to
be more powerful than anything else. It is the innate energy of Christ as life which is like the LAW of gravity.

Its innate power to liberate depends on where the one indwelt with by the Spirit of Christ sets his mind.

It is a law like power steering in an automobile is a law. It is too hard without that power steering motor to steer that
moving heavy machine. But there is like a law of the power steering motor. With a little cooperation with your own
hands on the steering wheel that power steering supplies the needed energy to control the direction of the car.

This is an analogy. Few analogies are perfect. To locate a descrepency in the imperfect analogy would not be too difficult.

My point I hope is made. "The law of the Spirit of life . . . in Christ Jesus" is the law in the overcoming nature of His life.
We only to set the leading part of our heart upon Him. And like the law of gravity or the law of the power steering motor there is
liberation from the wretched self condemnation Paul elaborated upon in chapter 7.

In that previous chapter he elaborated on the demand upon him from the law Moses gave.
And he spoke of the law of his mind which agrees with the rightness of God's demand.
And he spoke of a law in his fallen body dragging him away down into defeat.

Now in chapter 8 a stronger Person with a stronger life can indwell him freeing from this defeat that is the law of the Spirit of divine
life in the very person of the resurrected and available Christ Jesus.

 

[HIM]

Yes it does. Read it for yourself.

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

These curses, the result of Sin, AKA, "The Law of Sin", will possess you, enslave you, you won't be able to stop them because you can't help yourself. Isn't that what "overtake" means?

20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Not one of the curses mentioned in Deut 28 says that sin takes possession of us and makes us do what we would not because we yielded ourselves over to be it's servant. NOT ONE. Not that one nor this one.

Deut. 28: 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and "astonishment of heart":

I asked you questions, but to my frustration you refused to answer.

Because they are not relevant. Your premise is that the Law of sin mentioned in Romans 7 is in the Book of the Law. So in the Book of the Law is where your evidence would be. It isn't there so you flood the screen with words IMPLYING it is. But both you, I andf everyone else knows it isn't.

Because if the Law of Sin was you or someone else would have shown the curse that says, He that sins is a servant to sin, that sin becomes their master, and they have no control what they do. YOU haven't. You have only implied that it was. And while doing so you make negative comments about me (aka jabs). ILL begets ill, Sad....

 

[HIM]

Sinners, or the Teachers of the Law?

Both. And at times they were one in the same.

 

[HIM]

Hi there. Like your screen name. Are you Greek Orthodox?

The title of this thread is from Romans 8:2.

For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2) (Recovery Version)

Why do you like that translation? "The Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of the sin and of the death" is what it says in the Greek Text. There is a huge difference. I highlighted it I hope you see it it.

I am having a little trouble seeing what significant differences there are between a couple of posters.

@Studyman says that the Law of sin mentioned in Romans 7 is in the Book of the Law. It isn't. That is the difference here.

Particularly, I'd like to know how two posters would answer the questions below with a simple (simple) affirmation or not.
Poster HIM and poster Studyman.

Who believes that the law of Moses has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

Who believes that the law of the Spirit of life has freed Paul from the law of sin and of death?

First I must say we have issues with the word believe. It isn't that we believe anything, it is what we know. And we know that the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus has set Us free from the Law of the sin and of the death, that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled, accomplished in us to the uttermost. Because we walk in the Spirit of the Life of and in Christ Jesus not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, covetousness, all manner of concupiscence.

Having been made free from the Law of sin. The evil that we wouldn't do, but do. In this doing what we would not. It is no longer we who do but the sin we gave ourselves over to serve. As Jesus said He that commits sin is a slave to it. But if the Son shall make us free, free we are indeed. By His stripes we have been healed. So let us go and sin no more lest something even worse besets us.

 

[oikonomia]

Hi there. Like your screen name. Are you Greek Orthodox?

Greetings. I meet on the ground of locality - one city / one church. I am not of the Greek Orthodox Church in that denominational sense.

Why do you like that translation? "The Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of the sin and of the death" is what it says in the Greek Text. There is a huge difference. I highlighted it I hope you see it it.

I believe The Recovery Version has had to my knowledge more than one edition. I have both. The earlier one read there -
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death." - 1985
The second version RcV, a revision dating at, I think 1995/96, had the same rendering.
But the online version and a physical copy have it I have read -
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. I think it is a 2016 revision.

I would have to do more research and questioning to find out why the editorial change.
I can accept either rendering as I consult other good English versions with no problem.

As I check biblehub I notice most by far have it as the law is in Christ Jesus.
One exception is the Berean Literal Bible which also has -
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.

It is not a real big difference to me. I am not a Greek language scholar.

@Studyman says that the Law of sin mentioned in Romans 7 is in the Book of the Law. It isn't. That is the difference here.

My opinion is that Studyman may be thinking about it more now.
But I'll let Studyman clarify where he is now.

If you ask me I would not say "the law of the Spirit of life" is the same as the law Paul talks about as what he adored but
failed to keep in Romans 7.

I tried to explain the difference between the Law of Moses as a demand above man, upon man.
But the law of the Spirit of divine life in Christ Jesus is like the law of gravity. But it is a totally positive sense.

As I read and somewhat re-read the exchanges between yourself and Studyman sometimes the cause of disagreement was
not too clear at times. So I put the simple question to you both (to jump into the discussion myself).

Thanks for you reply now.

First I must say we have issues with the word believe. It isn't that we believe anything, it is what we know. And we know that the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus has set Us free from the Law of the sin and of the death, that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled, accomplished in us to the uttermost. Because we walk in the Spirit of the Life of and in Christ Jesus not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, covetousness, all manner of concupiscence.

Paul got it. Paul is laboring that WE also get it.

If we set the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Christ lives that will unleash the power of the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ Jesus - to free us in Christ Jesus. That is "IF".

We need to have the experience and have the experience again.
We need to have the experience again and again until is it the way we WALK.

I have experienced this freeing in Christ Jesus BY Christ Jesus. I need much more and deeper enjoyment of this freeing power
of the Spirit of divine life in Christ.

That requires that my faith grow and expand and deepen. If I grow in this believing ( ok this knowing) Christ Himself
will make more and more of His home in my heart by faith.

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, (Eph. 3:16,17a)

Let me be practical.
Though I have been a Christian for 50 years I STILL need to be "strengthened" into that realm where Christ lives in me.
Though I have been redeemed eternally I STILL need Christ to move into MORE areas of my psychological heart.
I expect this strengthening into the inner man and this opening up my heart for Christ to settle down in my personality
will continue until I die or meet the Lord in rapture.

So by faith I take Christ like this "Lord Jesus I believe YOU can be my emotion. Come into more of my emotions Lord."
And again "Lord Jesus I remember things I should forget. Lord YOU be my remembering and my forgetting. Lord know that this
is your will - to make your home in my heart."

And again "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus please You me my opinion in this matter, Lord You be my reaction in this situation. Lord Jesus
I need You to be my inclination, endurance, longsuffering, wisdom, insight. Lord Jesus I need You as my EVERYTHING."

Brother Paul surely got through. He could write -
I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

We have the letters of a Christian so mature. And he labors to bring his audience into what he has learned. And he speaks to us
in faith - infusing faith into us.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (Rom. 8:9)

All the victory, freedom, co-death, co-resurrection in Christ Paul boasts of is dependent upon our turning our being to
the Lord Jesus in our innermost being - our spirit. Ie. setting the mind on the spirit aka being strengthened into the inner man.

I believe the experience Paul wrote of in chapter 7 did not automatically cease to be the moment I received Christ in the
born again regeneration event. Paul gradually got out of that delimma imo. And we too must by growth get OUT of that
Romans 7 wretched failure.

I think it is written so it sounds like the instant Paul got converted he was delivered from that.
But the writings we see are of a Christian who has matured through a long process to be persuaded of the
all-inclisiveness of Christ. He made more and more of His home in Paul. And Paul's ministry is to put his
audience of believers in that same path of development, growth, encrease of grace unto the building up of the church, let alone the individual believers.

We should be on the path of learning to apply the power of His victorious life by setting our mind on the Lord within.
Often it is just to call upon His name "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus."
Or we may not know exactly what to pray for. But we call "Abba Father. Abba Father" or "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I love You."

He is rich to all who call upon Him. He knows for what we should pray even when we do not have the utterance to express it
or even know what we need. We do know that we need Him - Himself. And He is the Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - Christ Himself
living in us and the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead - all interchangeable titles for the indwelling Triune God as the Spirit who has been dispensed into believers.

Having been made free from the Law of sin. The evil that we wouldn't do, but do. In this doing what we would not. It is no longer we who do but the sin we gave ourselves over to serve. As Jesus said He that commits sin is a slave to it. But if the Son shall make us free, free we are indeed.

Thankyou. What a gospel.

All of this power of life, enabling of life, empowering of Christ in us plus the co-death, -burial, co-raised with Him in Romans depends upon our enjoying setting our mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit the Triune God indwells and is one with us.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

We must utilize and apply this "organic" blending of God with our own being.
We must spend to the maximum this union in life with Christ.
He is so willing because it is of His eternal purpose to conform us to the image of His Son.
And we are eager because it is our ONLY way of salvation through and through spirit and soul and body and even eventually the environment of the world we live in.

Romans chapter 8 is probably the highpeak of whole book of Romans.
That is why this thread is so very benefitial.

 

[oikonomia]

@Studyman says that the Law of sin mentioned in Romans 7 is in the Book of the Law. It isn't. That is the difference here.

Thanks. That is concerning the law of sin and of death.
He makes a case that that is the curse brought down because of disobedience to the law of Moses.

I had never thought of it that way.
But I was asking more about "the law of the Spirit of life" which has freed us from that law of sin and death.

Is that the law of Moses? That is more of the question I put to both of you.
Thankyou now for both responding something.

May the Lord strengthen us into our inner man to make home in our hearts through faith.
I enjoy singing that passage -

 

[Studyman]

Why do you think that condemnation scripture in Titus reads as it does? (Rhetorical, intended to evoke thought) Please answer me this question before we persist with more long dialogue. Who gave Jesus a hard time... Sinners, or the Teachers of the Law?

Clearly the mainstream preachers of Jesus time, who Professed to know God but transgressed His commandments by their own manmade religious traditions, were sinners. And they did give Him a very hard time for showing them their transgressions. They were told to repent of their religious traditions and manmade judgments, by the Words of the very God they claimed to know, but they refused. While other sinners, turned to God, and repented of their transgressions as commanded. They were thankful to God, and to His Son who this same God sent.

 

[Studyman]

Because if the Law of Sin was you or someone else would have shown the curse that says, He that sins is a servant to sin, that sin becomes their master, and they have no control what they do. YOU haven't. You have only implied that it was. And while doing so you make negative comments about me (aka jabs). ILL begets ill, Sad....

To believe the religious philosophy you are promoting, That God didn't warn men of what happens if they consider His Words irrelevant, I would have to believe Paul encountered a condition, a circumstance never before encountered by man, a condition that God Himself wasn't privy to, nor did HE warn His Son's and Daughters or Prophesy of the condition that overtakes the man of sin Paul was describing.

I would have to believe that in Paul's time the curses brought about by disobedience, and the blessing brought about by obedience detailed by the Spirit of God in the Law and Prophets didn't exist and were actually considered by Paul as irrelevant, just as they are considered by you as irrelevant.

I would have to believe that his blindness, and inability to rule over his flesh, (Do what he didn't want to do) was the result of some hidden, secret force unknown by God. A slavery never experienced by Cain or King Saul, or Judas, or anyone until Paul. And that the Holy Scriptures, which Paul said were "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." missed this most crucial and important circumstance that a man who lives in sin is enslaved by, and therefore God didn't detail it for them.

I would have to believe that before the Catholic religion added Paul's letters to the Bible, there was no hope for any man, because the Law and Prophets didn't prepare the man of God.

The questions I asked are at the very heart of Paul's message. Which Paul was a slave to the Law of Sin? The Pharisee? Or the humbled man who served the Law of God with his mind (heart). But the answers to them expose the religious philosophy you are promoting, as a falsehood.

Frankly you deserve more than a little jab for your stubborn refusal to consider the scriptures Posted. But I know how important a man's pride is to them, and the lengths men will go to preserve and protect it, as I am also a man.

So I am done here, having made the case for the Scriptures, and can now only hope that you might be allowed by God to see what the Scriptures reveal in this regard. As I'm sure you don't want to consider God's Word irrelevant, and yet you are.

 

[HIM]

So I am done here, having made the case for the Scriptures

Good. As you leave you might want to consider not adding things to verses that aren’t there

As I'm sure you don't want to consider God's Word irrelevant, and yet you are.

It is your questions and your interpretation of the verses in regards to this topic that is irrelevant. This was stated in the post you responded to clearly. See how you twist things to insult. That behavior isn’t from God.

 

[Studyman]

The law of the Spirit of life as a law is more like "the law of gravity."
The word "law" we see both in "the law of Moses" and in "the law of the Spirit of life".

The point is that all men "Yield themselves" to some law. Just as Jesus yielded Himself to a Law. Jesus the man never created a Law. Just as Moses never created a Law. Moses was given, and Jesus Walked in, the Same Law, given by the Same God, for the Same purpose.

At least this is what the scriptures teach, in my view.

But the sense is not the same in Paul's discourse.
The difference is the law as given by Moses is a demand upon Paul.
And "the law of the Spirit of life . . . in Christ Jesus" is a law as an automatic living force. It is dependably consistent to
be more powerful than anything else. It is the innate energy of Christ as life which is like the LAW of gravity.

Are you saying it wasn't a demand upon Jesus?

Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

I understand this philosophy as it is popular in the world God placed me in. But the teaching that Jesus had it easy because HE was an immortal God, or that HE was given access to powers no other human was given access to is an affront to both Jesus and His Father in my view.

It's akin to God being a coach, and denying performance enhancing drugs for the whole team, except his son. And then when the son outperforms all other men because of the drugs, the coach gives his son the trophy, and all the glory. To me this is so demeaning to the Christ and His Father. It implies Jesus risked nothing, gave nothing. It makes a sham of His whole life. The temptations and the trials of His Faith are rendered as just a show, like Hollywood.

I don't believe the Scriptures support the implication of this philosophy, although there was a time when I did.

Its innate power to liberate depends on where the one indwelt with by the Spirit of Christ sets his mind.

It is a law like power steering in an automobile is a law. It is too hard without that power steering motor to steer that
moving heavy machine. But there is like a law of the power steering motor. With a little cooperation with your own
hands on the steering wheel that power steering supplies the needed energy to control the direction of the car.

This is an analogy. Few analogies are perfect. To locate a descrepency in the imperfect analogy would not be too difficult.

My point I hope is made. "The law of the Spirit of life . . . in Christ Jesus" is the law in the overcoming nature of His life.
We only to set the leading part of our heart upon Him. And like the law of gravity or the law of the power steering motor there is
liberation from the wretched self condemnation Paul elaborated upon in chapter 7.

Again, I asked questions about this but the poster refused to answer. I'll ask you as well. When was Paul a slave to sin? As a Pharisee, or as a man who served the Law of God in his mind? When did Paul's Flesh rule over his mind, causing him to do, that which he didn't want to do? As a Pharisee, or as a man who served the Law of God with his mind?

You asked me a question, about the Law God gave Moses, and the LAW that was in Christ Jesus. Just to set a foundation of truth, didn't Jesus Walk in the same Law God gave Moses? And is this not the very reason why God Glorified Jesus? And if these things are true, according to scriptures, can we then build on them?

In that previous chapter he elaborated on the demand upon him from the law Moses gave.

Yes, Paul did.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Death)

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yes, the demand for obedience is still there. Why? Because it still leads to death. But if a man walks in the LAW of the spirit of Life, that Jesus walked in, we are freed from the Law of sin.

And he spoke of the law of his mind which agrees with the rightness of God's demand.

What Pharisee exists ever that would not say or believe that they delight in the Law of God after the inward man?

Consider Eve as an example God gave for us. She also had the Law of God in her mind, and no doubt delighted in it. But where did God place her? In a garden with "another law" that she listened to, Yes? So isn't it Scriptural truth that she saw "another law" warring against the Law of God in her mind? And she listened to it, and chose it over the Law of God in her mind. Just as Paul did before his conversion. And what happened to her? She became a slave to sin, blinded to the consequences God had already given her. And she shared this deception with others, who believed her over God as well. Does this not happen over and over in Scriptures?

Deut. 32: 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Cain and Abel? Caleb and the congregation of Israel? Paul and Stephen? Priest's "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And what does God call those who live in religious doctrines and traditions of men?

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

And he spoke of a law in his fallen body dragging him away down into defeat.

This is why it's so important to answer the questions I asked. When was he dragged down in defeat? Before HE "Yielded himself" a servant to obey God with his mind? Or after?

Now in chapter 8 a stronger Person with a stronger life can indwell him freeing from this defeat that is the law of the Spirit of divine
life in the very person of the resurrected and available Christ Jesus.

Yes, for those who "walk" not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"14 For we know that the law is spiritual": but I am carnal, sold under sin.

When is Paul carnal, sold under sin? As a Pharisee? Or after he "Yield Himself" a servant to obey God, and "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[oikonomia]

The point is that all men "Yield themselves" to some law. Just as Jesus yielded Himself to a Law. Jesus the man never created a Law. Just as Moses never created a Law. Moses was given, and Jesus Walked in, the Same Law, given by the Same God, for the Same purpose.

At least this is what the scriptures teach, in my view.

Thanks Studyman for some interesting points to discuss.
I read through all of them, and would like to reply in detail soon.

But could you please help me to get clear on an impression I have about something you wrote previously?

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" I would have to believe that before the Catholic religion added Paul's letters to the Bible, there was no hope for any man, because the Law and Prophets didn't prepare the man of God. "
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Is there an implication here that the New Testament would have been better off WITHOUT the addition of the thirteen or so
letters authored by the Apostle Paul?

Do I detect that your saying "the Catholic religion" (or whoever recognized the canonicity of Paul's letters,) that the Bible
would have been clearer, better, perhaps MORE truthful before this "adding" of Paul's letters occured?

Could you first clear that position of yours up for me?
Thanks.

 

[Grip Docility]

Clearly the mainstream preachers of Jesus time, who Professed to know God but transgressed His commandments by their own manmade religious traditions, were sinners. And they did give Him a very hard time for showing them their transgressions.

When Jesus rebukes these Pharisees and Teachers of the Law, which is more frequently than one might imagine, He makes very strong statements towards them that reveal a cognitive dissonance between their self perception and God's knowledge of their True Hearts.

In the following passage of scripture, we see Jesus address the Pharisees for saying that He drives out demons by the Power of Beelzebul (Lord of the Flies, Death, aka... Satan)... An interesting thought, in the minds of the Pharisees, Jesus was Evil. This quote is in spoiler format to shorten this post.

Spoiler

Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man[h] could both speak and see. 23 And all the crowds were astounded and said, “Perhaps this is the Son of David!”

24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, “The man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”

25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, who is it your sons drive them out by? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. 29 How can someone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house. 30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters. 31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against[i] the Spirit will not be forgiven.[j] 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Now, we get to the meat of the Matter. Before Paul teaches us the "Fruits of the Spirit", Jesus references the Fruit of the Pharisees then eludes to them being "serpents" "vipers" "small s satans"

Can you and I agree that because the Pharisees saw themselves as Law Abiding and of haughty church position that they saw themselves as righteous?

A Tree and Its Fruit​

Matthew 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad[k] and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you speak good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.

They were told to repent of their religious traditions and manmade judgments, by the Words of the very God they claimed to know, but they refused. While other sinners, turned to God, and repented of their transgressions as commanded. They were thankful to God, and to His Son who this same God sent.

Do you remember what Paul said the Purpose of the Law is in Romans 3:20 ? What is implied by Romans 4:15, with that in mind?

 

[Grip Docility]

Both. And at times they were one in the same.

Could we then say that the Teachers of the Law thought they were Righteous by the Law, and were a bit more angry with Jesus when Jesus called them on their evil hearts?