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Your thoughts on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17

ViaCrucis

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The text mentions the Lord's glorious return, judgment, and the consummation of all things. But so do many other texts in Scripture, that doesn't make every book in the Bible that talks about our future hope a book about "the end times". St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 talks about the resurrection of the dead at the Lord's Parousia, that doesn't mean the entire letter of 1 Corinthians is about "the end times".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Douggg

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In Revelation, which you had mentioned was written to the churches in province of Asia, chapters 6 through 19 are about the end times.
 
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parousia70

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In Revelation, which you had mentioned was written to the churches in province of Asia, chapters 6 through 19 are about the end times.
Which is weird, since Jesus specifically promises those first century Churches specific results that would directly effect and apply to THEM and their First century situations, via His End Times Parousia:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent, they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.
 
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parousia70

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Well, Somebody must have forgot to tell that to Paul, who believed and taught the exact opposite of what you are claiming:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the aorist tense (past). Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite views being taught is true and correct, that of the Divinely, infallibly Inspired 1st century apostle Paul, or that or Random, fallible, 21st century internet guy Douggg, My money is on the Apostle being correct, and Douggg being wrong.

The Bible says is, I believe it, That settles it.
 
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Berean Tim

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There's really nothing I can say to that. If you believe Revelation isn't relevant, I don't understand why you would even comment. Why would it matter who it "WAS"
I'll leave you with this, the ECF's placed Revelation in the canon long after 70AD
 
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parousia70

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I'll leave you with this, the ECF's placed Revelation in the canon long after 70AD

Well, to be fair, NO books, gospels, epistles etc. were "placed in the canon" by the ECF's before the 4th century....
 
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ViaCrucis

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There's really nothing I can say to that. If you believe Revelation isn't relevant, I don't understand why you would even comment. Why would it matter who it "WAS"
I'll leave you with this, the ECF's placed Revelation in the canon long after 70AD

I'm not sure why you think I don't think think the Apocalypse is relevant. It's very relevant--it's just not some sort of outline of "the end times" as some choose to read it.

None of the books of the New Testament achieved canonicity until many years after 70 AD, because there wasn't a New Testament until long after the Apostles were dead and gone. There was certainly a proto-Canon among the apostolic fathers of the 2nd century, which is what came to be called the New Testament Homolegoumena, but disputes over certain books (the Antilegomena) continued for many hundreds of years. With the Apocalypse being noteworthy as arguably the most disputed book, not attaining universal canonical status until around the 7th or 8th century. Though widely accepted from pretty early on in the West (such as we can see in the writings of St. Justin and St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century), it wasn't until the time of St. John of Damascus or a little later that it gained full acceptance in the Eastern Church.

This is probably why, or one of the reasons why, it is the only book which has no regular readings in the Eastern lectionary even to this day.

But that doesn't mean it isn't relevant--it is. The Apocalypse has a lot to say, it's just not some sort of outline or blueprint for the end of the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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In Revelation, which you had mentioned was written to the churches in province of Asia, chapters 6 through 19 are about the end times.

There are certainly some parts in those chapters that are relevant in regard to the Eschaton, such as in Revelation ch. 6 which discusses the Day of Judgment at Christ's Parousia (mentioned again later on in the text with more dramatic imagery). But, no, they aren't about "the end times".

I see no reason to make that leap in logic.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Berean Tim

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You wrote,"The Apocalypse wasn't written to us, or to some group of people living at the end of the world--it's written to Christians living in the first century, in the province of Asia."
This is why I came to that conclusion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You wrote,"The Apocalypse wasn't written to us, or to some group of people living at the end of the world--it's written to Christians living in the first century, in the province of Asia."
This is why I came to that conclusion.

None of the books of the Bible were written to us though. For example St. Paul didn't write his letter to the Romans to us, he wrote it to the Church in Rome living at the time when he wrote it. That doesn't mean Romans is irrelevant, it is Holy Scripture. We benefit from the books of Scripture because what they say matters, but in order to benefit it is important that we understand what is being said, why it is being said, and for whom it is being said.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Douggg

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Being here on earth, time of the end is not what you are thinking time of the end means. It is not just about Jesus's coming.

If you were in heaven, viewing things from there - like them in the throne room in Revelation 5, why John wept, when no one was found worthy to open the book? But them in the throne room said wept not for the Lamb of God is worthy.

Time of the end means - the end of Satan and his third of the angels kingdom of Babylon the great, messing up all of creation in heaven and on the earth.
 
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Douggg

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Jesus spoke about the will of God being to believe in him (Jesus). Before Abraham was, Jesus said, "I am".

I Believe You as me are looking for an eternal life with the God of Abraham "Am I wrong?
Why are you infatuated with Abraham? It is Jesus who saves. I don't have eternal life because of Abraham.

Everyone according to the rules in this eschatology forum who participate are Christians - i.e. saved. We are not dealing with whether or not posters in this forum are saved.

To do the - I would say try another forum. Subject matter in this thread is the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. btw, we are about the same age; I am 72.
 
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parousia70

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You wrote,"The Apocalypse wasn't written to us, or to some group of people living at the end of the world--it's written to Christians living in the first century, in the province of Asia."
This is why I came to that conclusion.

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
I explain why below.


I can't agree with this more strongly.

It would be akin to saying the Flood Narrative in Genesis is useless and irrelevant for today's Christian, and can therefore be excised from our Bibles as unnecessary arglebargle.

The prophesy of the coming flood and exhortation to Build the ark was Given TO Noah, not TO us. Yet there it is, in Black and white, right in our Bibles, preserved FOR ALL generations to read about and learn from.

How one can then "conclude", as @Berean Tim does, that such a narrative is therefore irrelevant and useless today, is beyond me.
 
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Berean Tim

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How one can then "conclude", as @Berean Tim does, that such a narrative is therefore irrelevant and useless today, is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe it's irrelevant and useless. I'm a Futurist, I think you know that. Why make statements like that ? You've stated before the ECF never mentioned the AntiChrist, I easily disproved that. Seems you state things hoping to score points without any regard for truth
 
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klutedavid

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That is the number of the name of the beast, in Arabic you say?

The text (Revelation) was written in Koine Greek.

So how do we know which language to use in determining the number of his name?
 
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Douggg

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Douggg

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Yes. And this forum is not about whether posters here are saved or not. There is another forum to discuss salvation. Go there. I think it is made for your interests.
Salvation (Soteriology)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You are probably right.

Many of our streets, lined with homes from which property taxes are extracted, are crumbing. However we have the nicest circuit of newly constructed bike paths, used mostly by students, who don't pay taxes. These bike paths are paid for by those same citizens whose streets are crumbling. How ironic. The bike paths are even plowed before our streets are, so the students can get their daily exercise. It's madness I tell you (and don't get me started about our lakes).
 
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