Your religion and suffering

[PassionFruit]

I was wondering what your religion teaches about suffering. For instance, does it teach that suffering is part of the improvement for humanity? When I was a Christian I was often taught that suffering was a way for God to test us.

Which brings me to my next point, if you believe suffering is good for us, how do you know when you're being tested? I only ask this because, these tests can also be interpreted as punishments for some. So how do you discern whether or not you're being tested or punished?

Also do you feel suffering is simply the result of people creating it? (i.e. sociology, pyschology,etc.) and do you also feel it's good for us?

This topic was probably posted awhile ago, but I don't want to take the time to sort through any threads.

 

[xDenax]

I think suffering is natural to life. To live means we will sometimes suffer. I don't know why some of us have to suffer so much more then others. Is it test? No, I don't believe it's a test but we can choose to learn from it. No, I don't think suffering is necessarily "good" for us but I think there are instances where we can learn something from it.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Pain is a survival mechanism. Psychological suffering is a lot more complex than that, but not completely different: it's all geared towards avoiding injury, both mental and physical, and as such *can* be a learning experience.

Unfortunately, it doesn't shut down in a situation when you have no way of escaping.

 

[Witchy Bee]

I don't think there's anything wrong with suffering, it may not be a test but it certainly makes us appreciate it when we're not suffering. Some people just suffer more than others. Maybe it all has to do karma.

 

[xDenax]

Maybe it all has to do karma.

But then you have babies who suffer and what have they done to deserve it? Unless it's because of something they did in a different life which would totally s*ck to be quite honest.

 

[Wicked Willow]

I am deeply suspicious of metafictions that would attribute a punitive or instructive function to every kind of suffering taking place on earth. Some people may take comfort in the idea that there was some sort of "deeper meaning" behind a natural disaster or a nasty accident, but in the end, I consider it counterproductive, as it creates whole new cycles of guilt and rationalization:

"My son didn't just die because he cut himself on a can and developed sepsis. He died because GOD wants to test my faith! I need to be strong and not blame the LORD!"

"My baby has Down syndrome because she was a nasty person in a previous life. Now she has to pay the price, thrice over."

That's not a very healthy attitude, IMO.

 

[tucker58]

I was wondering what your religion teaches about suffering. For instance, does it teach that suffering is part of the improvement for humanity? When I was a Christian I was often taught that suffering was a way for God to test us.

Which brings me to my next point, if you believe suffering is good for us, how do you know when you're being tested? I only ask this because, these tests can also be interpreted as punishments for some. So how do you discern whether or not you're being tested or punished?

Also do you feel suffering is simply the result of people creating it? (i.e. sociology, pyschology,etc.) and do you also feel it's good for us?

This topic was probably posted awhile ago, but I don't want to take the time to sort through any threads.

God does not test me. My problem is that I test Him. But in the last 55 years my imaginary "Friend" has always pasted the test. With the understanding that I have never tempted God, at least very much .

love,

tuck

 

[Witchy Bee]

But then you have babies who suffer and what have they done to deserve it? Unless it's because of something they did in a different life which would totally s*ck to be quite honest.

That's a good point. Some people do believe that karma can carry over from previous lives, but I don't. I suffered a lot as a baby, and while I think I am a better a better person for it, I'm sure it still sucked.

I don't know. If I had an explanation for all the suffering in the world I would go do something about it. Most of the time it makes us stronger though, so I don't think it's really a bad thing.

 

[tucker58]

I am deeply suspicious of metafictions that would attribute a punitive or instructive function to every kind of suffering taking place on earth. Some people may take comfort in the idea that there was some sort of "deeper meaning" behind a natural disaster or a nasty accident, but in the end, I consider it counterproductive, as it creates whole new cycles of guilt and rationalization:

"My son didn't just die because he cut himself on a can and developed sepsis. He died because GOD wants to test my faith! I need to be strong and not blame the LORD!"

"My baby has Down syndrome because she was a nasty person in a previous life. Now she has to pay the price, thrice over."

That's not a very healthy attitude, IMO.

Not that it matters but you and I agree.

love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

That's a good point. Some people do believe that karma can carry over from previous lives, but I don't. I suffered a lot as a baby, and while I think I am a better a better person for it, I'm sure it still sucked.

I don't know. If I had an explanation for all the suffering in the world I would go do something about it. Most of the time it makes us stronger though, so I don't think it's really a bad thing.

WB why should we as animals be treated any different than other animals?

Most animals lead a pretty much suffering life.

love,

tuck

 

[nChrist]

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[xDenax]

I just mentioned this elsewhere on another topic. I have an acquaintance who has a less then stellar reputation. Quite frankly, she's scary. I say she is the sort of person who would burn down your house while your babies are sleeping. She's vindictive and vengeful. Last year her little boy was diagnosed with Leukemia. A relative of mine actually said "what goes around comes around". I just can't believe in such a thing. What did that child do to deserve to be so sick? His mother is a piece of work I admit but to suggest that is the cause of his illness puts us in a dangerous position I think. Does that mean everyone who suffers deserves it? Everyone who is sick should be left alone to die because they did something terrible? Blech. I hate that idea.

 

[tucker58]

Pain is a survival mechanism. Psychological suffering is a lot more complex than that, but not completely different: it's all geared towards avoiding injury, both mental and physical, and as such *can* be a learning experience.

Unfortunately, it doesn't shut down in a situation when you have no way of escaping.

They obviously need and imaginary Friend

love,

tuck

 

[xDenax]

WB why should we as animals be treated any different than other animals?

Most animals lead a pretty much suffering life.

love,

tuck

What have my cats been saying?

 

[Eudaimonist]

I was wondering what your religion teaches about suffering.

While suffering may certainly test us, it's not something to be glorified and regarded as good to have around. Perhaps some suffering is inevitable, but we can test ourselves without adding suffering onto our lives. Happiness should be the focus of life; suffering a temporary setback to be overcome. Suffering is usually an indication that some aspect of our lives needs to be improved, and so it often acts as a signal for improvement.

That said, I do believe in something called "noble suffering". Whatever suffering might be involved in the heroic pursuit of great goals, it may be preferable to endure that suffering than to choose the hedonistic way out of failing to live up to one's calling. This doesn't make suffering "good" -- it may simply be a necessary evil in the pursuit of what is most valuable in life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[seashale76]

Afflictions

 

[Witchy Bee]

WB why should we as animals be treated any different than other animals?

Most animals lead a pretty much suffering life.

love,

tuck

I didn't say we should. But lets face it, we certainly don't consider ourselves animals most of the time. And not all animals have had a suffering life. But yes, animals suffer too, everyone suffers. It's part of life.

 

[xDenax]

While suffering may certainly test us, it's not something to be glorified and regarded as good to have around. Perhaps some suffering is inevitable, but we can test ourselves without adding suffering onto our lives. Happiness should be the focus of life; suffering a temporary setback to be overcome.

I have to agree.

 

[Saint Nihilo]

But then you have babies who suffer and what have they done to deserve it? Unless it's because of something they did in a different life which would totally s*ck to be quite honest.

This is something I feel strongly about after doing a lot of research on Buddhist and Hindu concepts of karma (kamma) at university. The Western converts to Eastern religions with a karmic belief really have transmogrified the teachings with a broad whitewashing paintbrush. Many Western Buddhists deny actual rebirth in toto (remembering of course that Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation per se because there is no actual soul to reincarnate: the doctrine of anatman). They interpret it symbolically or ignore it outright.

The problem I have with this is it is so vastly different from the actual quotidien practices of Buddhists in South and Southeast Asia. Many, many Buddhists actually do believe that children with downs and other horrific congenital defects are being punished by universal workings of karma. Mothers who lose children? Karma. Murder and rape? Karma. And in many ways I think this is just vile. So my two cents on this subject of suffering is that I find it interesting that we have this constant belief in the West that the Eastern faiths are these incredibly humane counterparts to the wickedness of the Abrahamic faiths when in truth most Asians I know (particuliarly those influenced by American/Western ideas such as the Taiwanese and Hong Kongers) find Buddhism to be very, very traditional and rigid, the same way many disaffected youth in America view traditional Christianity. Because in Asia, Buddhism isn't the exotic plaything of the educated middle class like it is here, it is a commonplace religious institution with a long history and traditional outlooks.

I guess this just shows, with suffering as the context in this particuliar situation, that there is still this lingering somewhat vapid orientalism in the West that completely warps Eastern religion into the gospel of do-as-thou-wilt with pretty music and eternal love. The fact remains that karma is as much a hard to swallow idea on the subject of suffering as is the punishment of Allah or the judgment of Christ.

Just my opinion on the idea of suffering and karmic interpreations of it.

 

[razeontherock]

[EDIT: this was aimed at Mark's quote, in xDena'sX post]
Happiness is also a temporal state, highly in flux, with no Spiritual root. Pursuing it is the Biblical definition of "walking by sight." There are deeper things, more worthy of pursuit. Purpose is a good example! And it can be bring a satisfaction that will help endure setbacks.