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Of course we should be loving about it. Nowhere in that newsletter does it say, or even hint at, being heartless and cruel towards homosexuals. But we still have to stand for what God says is right. It is completely possible to be both kind and firm on an issue. The major problem, however, is that we're barely making a stand at all, loving or otherwise. It can be just as bad to be silent than oppressive.
You know, in my mind it all comes down to people not being all that secure in their knowledge of God and the wonderful things God is able to accomplish.
What is the best way to convert the unconverted? Love or condemnation? Understanding or chastisement? If we as Christians believe in what we believe in then we can allow people to be wrong and still not have it effect our belief system. Homosexuality is wrong and it will forever be wrong. Yet, can we truly love those that insist on doing things their own way, the wrong way, and not have it effect the basic beliefs we all share and that is, "God is love?"
How does one convey "God is love" to another while condemning them at the same time?
I see this as the great dichotomy that must be answered by all Christians. Can we love even those that despise and hate us? Will we feed them, clothe them, help them even though they may wish us dead? I struggle with this myself, seemingly at the time, and yet we know exactly what Christ would do....He would forgive and not condemn. He didn't say on the cross, "Father, please exact the most painful retribution on these miserable sots that have nothing but evil in there hearts." He forgave and said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
Can we see the homosexual, the thief, the murderer, the adulterer, the gossiper or for that matter our own neighbor as needing our forgiveness first and our willingness to understand as well because "they know not what they do."
Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man is not nearly as much as a concern of mine as whether I can still love and still care about people that have made a colossal error. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake my firm belief in my faith and the mercy and love that God has to offer even those that hate Him. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake anyone's faith in what God and what the continual prayer of a righteous man can accomplish.
The state is wrong, period. Yet the state is made of people that need God just as desperately as we do and these people need our prayers. "Lord, open their eyes. Open their hearts to the truth of your word and the glorious love you have for them." Does the Lord care who wins the football game when both teams pray for victory? Does the Lord care who wins the game of allowing gays to marry and both sides pray for victory? Or does the Lord care when we don't display a heart filled with the same pity, mercy and compassion of our enemies as He does for His?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Mat. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The question is this. Is God's love so powerful as to allow even those that are mistaken, and which seek their foolish ways, and that even hate Him and yet still reach out in a desperate attempt to save, to bless and not curse?
we, each one of us, can vote for whatever we believe to be right, or wrong. our church should not get involved. i read some of the issues on one site some time ago-for the prop-but another site that had done some reseach pretty much rebutted them.
i am against gay marriage. i think its wrong. but, the tactics the "good guys" are using seems as wrong to me.
i read ahead and rnd makes very good points. quietly go vote your conscience. quietly, lovingly, make your case against gay marriage if you feel constrained to do so. but make as few enemies as possible. God wants to save them as much as He does anyone else.
i cant speak for anyone elses G/god, but i know mine does not consider homosexuality a worse sin than any other sin. i know that He loves the gay as much as He loves my worthless self. the tiniest, once-committed-only sin will still keep someone out of heaven.
i wish people were as vehement against slandering/misrepresenting etc as they are against homosexuality.
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Hello RND,
My request for prayer is exactly what you are indicating you also want done and that is for the Lord's will to be done as He sees fit not me or you or anyone else.
There is no public vote involved. No one is being ask to vote or make any public decision. The voting has already taken place. The outcome of the two previous ballot measures has been challenged in California's Supreme Court and the Justices have now taken the case for review. Whether it remains as the people of California have voted or if it is overturned is strictly up to the court. Only God has the ability to influence that decision. My prayer is simply that God's will be done.
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
No, you're not being nosy. I did indeed vote for Prop 8 last November. I did so because of my conviction that the two great institutions, the Sabbath and marriage are both things that, as Christians, we should honor and protect. These two things which the Creator gave to man at Creation are inseperabaly intertwined from Genesis to Revelaition."Not to be nosy Doc but did you originally vote for passage of proposition 8?
Then in Rev. 19:20 we read;12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
From Rev. 7:1-3:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Finally in Rev 20:4 we find the results of recieving the mark of the beast and recieving the Seal of God:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
The reason I have given these text is to establish the importance of the Sabbath if we are going to spend a thousand years with Christ after His second coming to be followed by all eternity.4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Hi RND,
In answer to your question: No, you're not being nosy. I did indeed vote for Prop 8 last November. I did so because of my conviction that the two great institutions, the Sabbath and marriage are both things that, as Christians, we should honor and protect. These two things which the Creator gave to man at Creation are inseperabaly intertwined from Genesis to Revelaition.
There is no argument that the Sabbath is going to be one of the marks of our loyalty to God and will be the only alternitive to the mark of the beast.
In Rev. 14:12 we read; Then in Rev. 19:20 we read; From Rev. 7:1-3:Finally in Rev 20:4 we find the results of recieving the mark of the beast and recieving the Seal of God: The reason I have given these text is to establish the importance of the Sabbath if we are going to spend a thousand years with Christ after His second coming to be followed by all eternity.
So, where/how does marriage come into all of this you ask? Marriage is the most used comparison in all the Bible to illustrate the relationship between Christ and His Church, His children. The ultimate goal of that reltionship is that we will be able to sit down at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.
It is quite clear that Satan wants to, if possible, destroy any symbolism that God has used, or is using, to show our relationship to our creator. The first target is marriage between a man and a woman. By doing so it removes mariage from the creation of man by our creator there by it erodes the entire account of creation and thus the origin of man and our salvation.
The entire conflict between Christ and Satan is a matter of worship. Which one will we worship? At the creation of man, the gift of the Sabbath and the gift of marriage are the two things that Satan can not duplicate. Counterfit and replace, yes! Duplicate, no!
There is yet another component to to be considered and that is how will the issue over marriage affect the coming conflict over the Sabbath.
I will not attempt to go into all the legalities involved if the "rights" of a very small monority are upheld over the "rights/wishes" of the majority. (I will however tell you that there are currently provosions available to same sex couples that will allow them every leagal benifit of marriage but does not use the word marriage.) Simply put the precident that would be set would clear the way for a reverse application. In other words it will make it much easier to reverse the process and the rights of Sabbath keepers in the future.
The concept of one male and one female is from God and creation. The concept of two people of the same sex God calls an abomnation.
We may not be able to change the ultimate outcome of this "marriage" issue, or the outcome of the callenge over Sabbath worship, but we must continue the strugle to preserve what God has ordained until Christ returns in the clouds of glory to take us to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.
"From the Desk of:
I'll be back in a bit to make comment on your last post.Mat Staver
Doc,
A shocking and very disturbing report has just crossed my desk
that could fundamentally shift the marriage debate in America.
In fact, if this new strategy works, it could literally mean
the "End of Marriage."
Earlier this month, the California Supreme Court heard oral
arguments regarding the homosexual activists' challenge to
Proposition 8 -- the amendment defining marriage as one man
and one woman that was approved by voters last November.
Liberty Counsel's amicus brief for this case makes it clear
that the California Supreme Court has no legal or constitutional
grounds to reject Proposition 8. But as I learned when I
argued the original same-sex marriage case before this same
Court last year, the homosexual activists (and judges with
an agenda!) are not deterred by the facts.
+ + How the California Court could "end" marriage
During the arguments in this year's case, a "compromise" was
discussed that would supposedly satisfy all parties --
affirming the result of Proposition 8 but resolving the
alleged "equal protection" problem of not allowing homosexuals
to marry.
What was that compromise? Simply end the use of the term "marriage"
altogether by the state of California! When asked by one of the
justices, lawyers from both sides agreed that the so-called
"compromise" would resolve the legal disputes. But the
ramifications of a new legal principle that ends marriage
would be devastating!
+ + Dangerous phase in the battle over marriage
Doc, we do not know what the California court will do.
But one thing is clear:
We are entering the most dangerous and most difficult
phase in the battle to save marriage we have yet seen.
The California court ruling could be announced any day and Liberty
Counsel must be ready. No matter who the decision favors, many
Californians will be outraged. If the decision goes against
pro-homosexual interests, we expect dramatic public demonstrations
and possibly even rioting.
Our lawyers are working on several marriage-related cases right now,
but I expect a flood of new cases to result from the California
decision, no matter which way it goes.
We cannot allow these activists and judges to "end"
marriage. Will you help me prepare for this crucial phase
of the marriage battle?
We know the political climate in Washington, D.C., under President
Obama and the Pelosi Congress is hostile to marriage. Our only
defense is to fight in the courts.
But we must be ready. Please help today. Thank you in advance for
your generous gift to Liberty Counsel, and may God bless you.
Mathew Staver, Founder and Chairman
Liberty Counsel
P.S. This new legal strategy that "ends" marriage is one of the
most dangerous threats we have yet seen to the institution of
marriage. I must fight back -- in the courtroom and the court
of public opinion.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
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