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<blockquote data-quote="aiki" data-source="post: 76466094" data-attributes="member: 178791"><p>Interesting. On what grounds would you believe the claim that change had happened by such interaction?</p><p></p><p>Even if you could track down the pen pal and read the letters, how would either thing substantiate my claim to being changed by the influence of the pen pal? The claim to being changed is what is at issue, not the existence of the pen pal or the exchange of letters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It may be so that there are such "Christians" as you describe here, but <u><em>I</em></u> - not these others - find it very helpful to use the descriptions of the Bible as a measuring stick against claims to interactions with the Holy Spirit.</p><p></p><p>In my view, people claiming to be Christian who deny the inspiration of the Bible and reject as true portions of it, are not Christians. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible tells us what a Christian is and this involves a trust in the Bible as the inspired word of God, true, without error in its original form.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Obviously, I think it has.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. The Bible, in my view, has a very clear divine stamp upon it. Why?</p><p></p><p>Fulfilled prophecy.</p><p>Thematic unity.</p><p>Historical accuracy.</p><p>Survivability.</p><p>Impact on individuals and nations.</p><p>Sheer literary quality.</p><p>Explanatory power.</p><p></p><p>Cumulatively, these things give me good cause to believe the Bible is what it claims to be: the word of God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Glad to see you acknowledge this distinction. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Can you tell me where the number 7 exists? Where in space and time do I find the number seven? Not collections that total seven or the written symbol for the number 7 but the immaterial entity that we call "seven." It doesn't have an exact physical location in time and space or attributes we can examine under a microscope but we all still agree the number 7 exists. Likewise the Holy Spirit. I can no more point you to the exact location of the Holy Spirit than I can the location of the number 7, nor can he be studied like a bug or a rock, but, like the number 7, he exists nonetheless as a real but immaterial entity.</p><p></p><p>Granted, the number 7 has no personal agency and makes no claims upon you as your Maker and God; but the mere inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit to empirical observation by no means makes him an extraordinary proposition. What, then, does?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, then, you are simply offering a description of your psychological state-of-affairs, and the limits of your knowledge, not establishing anything <em>objectively</em> true about the Christian's claim to knowing and experiencing God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the "So what?" response can be made to your inability to secure a certain knowledge of a Christian's experience of God. Your inability doesn't in any way dissolve or diminish their experience of God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But this isn't what I've done, actually. I've observed in many interactions with atheists that as the evidence for the Christian worldview and experience piles up, they simply respond with "I'm not convinced." But this isn't actually an assertion about <em>the nature or existence of the evidence</em> but of the <em>unwillingness of the atheist to acknowledge the evidence</em>. Pointing this out, drawing attention to this tactic, doesn't equate to an ad hoc, universal rejection of the atheist's perspective and challenges, however.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aiki, post: 76466094, member: 178791"] Interesting. On what grounds would you believe the claim that change had happened by such interaction? Even if you could track down the pen pal and read the letters, how would either thing substantiate my claim to being changed by the influence of the pen pal? The claim to being changed is what is at issue, not the existence of the pen pal or the exchange of letters. It may be so that there are such "Christians" as you describe here, but [U][I]I[/I][/U] - not these others - find it very helpful to use the descriptions of the Bible as a measuring stick against claims to interactions with the Holy Spirit. In my view, people claiming to be Christian who deny the inspiration of the Bible and reject as true portions of it, are not Christians. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible tells us what a Christian is and this involves a trust in the Bible as the inspired word of God, true, without error in its original form. Obviously, I think it has. I disagree. The Bible, in my view, has a very clear divine stamp upon it. Why? Fulfilled prophecy. Thematic unity. Historical accuracy. Survivability. Impact on individuals and nations. Sheer literary quality. Explanatory power. Cumulatively, these things give me good cause to believe the Bible is what it claims to be: the word of God. Glad to see you acknowledge this distinction. Can you tell me where the number 7 exists? Where in space and time do I find the number seven? Not collections that total seven or the written symbol for the number 7 but the immaterial entity that we call "seven." It doesn't have an exact physical location in time and space or attributes we can examine under a microscope but we all still agree the number 7 exists. Likewise the Holy Spirit. I can no more point you to the exact location of the Holy Spirit than I can the location of the number 7, nor can he be studied like a bug or a rock, but, like the number 7, he exists nonetheless as a real but immaterial entity. Granted, the number 7 has no personal agency and makes no claims upon you as your Maker and God; but the mere inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit to empirical observation by no means makes him an extraordinary proposition. What, then, does? Well, then, you are simply offering a description of your psychological state-of-affairs, and the limits of your knowledge, not establishing anything [I]objectively[/I] true about the Christian's claim to knowing and experiencing God. But the "So what?" response can be made to your inability to secure a certain knowledge of a Christian's experience of God. Your inability doesn't in any way dissolve or diminish their experience of God. But this isn't what I've done, actually. I've observed in many interactions with atheists that as the evidence for the Christian worldview and experience piles up, they simply respond with "I'm not convinced." But this isn't actually an assertion about [I]the nature or existence of the evidence[/I] but of the [I]unwillingness of the atheist to acknowledge the evidence[/I]. Pointing this out, drawing attention to this tactic, doesn't equate to an ad hoc, universal rejection of the atheist's perspective and challenges, however. [/QUOTE]
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