you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

Asinner · Mar 21, 2008

Rick Otto said:
The vanity isn't absense of thought, rather in thinking that repetition is effective in getting prayer answered!

The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

OrthodoxyUSA · Mar 21, 2008

From the psalms

I will chant unto my God for as long as I have my being.

Forgive me...

Uphill Battle · Mar 21, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
then how do you know which doctrines its ok to change and which it isnt?

dunno. I haven't changed any doctrines, so it's rather irrelevant to me.

such as?

ask around. They're your peeps, not mine.

well since the worship in teh Temple was liturgical .... do you have any evidence to think otherwise?

yes. nothing which you would accept.

Hebrews 8 tells us that Jewish liturgy was a shadow of heavenly worship. shadows have the same form as the reality. thus the form of heavenly worship is liturgy. this is also seen in Isaiah and Revelation, and probably other places. Additionally, all of Christian history bears witness to this understanding. there is not a single piece of evidence that says otherwise.

see, when you say "all of Christian history" you mean what your church tells you, because you believe that is the sum of Christian history. I do not. We will get no further with this, as you've limited yourself to believing and accepting only what your sect proposes on every matter. I don't place such a restriction on myself. I have read historical accounts, from Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, and non-partisan viewpoints. There is differences, and if any claim that their history was the only way it could possibly be, I pretty much reject it as self-aggrandizing. (mostly because these "histories" always paint the "see these good guys in history, they are us, and all these others, are not us, and this is what Christians always believed, everywhere, blah blah blah.) The most informitave I've read was the non-partisan histories... they didn' thave any dogmatic declerations that needed to be upheld.

and again, I point you to hebrews 9 and 10, that indicate a different picture than what you claim.

liturgically, just as the angels do. we are all one united Church after all.

I see. meh. I personally thing a creator God, who instilled creativity among his children would somehow be more....creative.

Asinner said:
The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

can you tell me how this supports repetitive prayer?

Asinner · Mar 21, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
can you tell me how this supports repetitive prayer?

How does it not?

GenemZ · Mar 21, 2008

Montalban said:
Was Paul's teaching valid only when it was written down?

Paul was an Apostle. He was stationed by God with a gift that was assigned to be both the spoken and written Word. Prophets had the same gift. Apostles were also master church builders. Prophets were not assigned to that.

Are you saying your early fathers were Apostles? If they were? Then we should see a Bible containing many more books.

Philothei · Mar 21, 2008

I see. meh. I personally thing a creator God, who instilled creativity among his children would somehow be more....creative.

Quote:

Where in the B ible it says you should use "creativity" in your worship or prayer?

Uphill Battle · Mar 21, 2008

Asinner said:
How does it not?

I'm just wondering how you get "repetitive" out of "fervent."

Uphill Battle · Mar 21, 2008

Philothei said:
I see. meh. I personally thing a creator God, who instilled creativity among his children would somehow be more....creative.

Quote:

Where in the B ible it says you should use "creativity" in your worship or prayer?

same place we can find the command to have no creativity, I suppose.

GenemZ · Mar 21, 2008

Montalban said:
Do you not get it? Wow!

Firstly, you've not met my challenge.

I have met your challenge, by asking the same kind of question you asked me. And, let you see how it feels to be placed on the other side.

I noticed you can not answer (according to how the question was asked).

Judge not lest ye be judged.

You'd been judged!

FYI... Jesus often times answered a question with a question. See how it works?

.

Asinner · Mar 21, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
I'm just wondering how you get "repetitive" out of "fervent."

Read vs. 17 and 18 in James 5

GenemZ · Mar 21, 2008

Montalban said:
I'm sure there are people out there who believe the church began with Luther!

He did not start it. He restarted it. It had run out of gas, and its battery went dead. He got it moving again as God intended it to be. Self correcting by the Word of God.

He took one book of the many that the church uses/used and said "This is the only book that we should test faith against" even though that very statement of faith is not found in that book. It fails its own test!

What book was that?

The whole basis of Protestantism is based on this flawed test for truth

Obviously, or you would be here saying Protestantism is the one true church.

There are people here like Uphill Battle who can't make up their minds if the divisions wihtin the Protestant community matter or not. He says both that it doesn't, but it's also 'sad' that they're divided. Why? Why would he be sad about something that doesn't matter to faith?

What's better?

Everyone believing in Santa Claus (unity).

Or, some debating issues that they do not all agree on? And, out of all those debating? Some of them actually finding Truth?

Which is better?

You seem to be suffering from a unity fetish.

.

Philothei · Mar 21, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
same place we can find the command to have no creativity, I suppose.

not good enough...

To pray unceasingly your name is repetitious....

like :kyrie eleison....

here:"

RM 1.9

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Uphill Battle · Mar 21, 2008

Asinner said:
Read vs. 17 and 18 in James 5

nothing about repetition.

Asinner · Mar 21, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
nothing about repetition.

What does effectual signify to you? To me, it means, to not stop praying until the desired result has come to fruition.

Love,
Christina

Uphill Battle · Mar 21, 2008

Asinner said:
What does effectual signify to you? To me, it means, to not stop praying until the desired result has come to fruition.

Love,
Christina

effectual to me signifies effectual.

It says nothing about repeating the same words over and over.

Philothei · Mar 21, 2008

Now even in the Lord's prayer ... Christ did not say do not repeat it... What it says (and I think you misinterepret here) is that do not be "repetitive" as the gentiles are... Do you know the prayer of the gentiles? the Ethnikoi? They "asked" and asked and asked" that was repetition and vain... To praise God in prayer is not repetion is praise... If our prayer is honest and sincere and "unceassing " it is pleasing to God. It has to do with disposition. Anyone's prayer repetitive or not can be hyporcrical like the Pharisees... He was praising himself instead of God.. .that kind of prayer is "a slap on the face of God" ....According to the Gospel we are to pray always... and live in God's mnea (rememberance)

Ephesians 6:18

[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus ... ... We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, ...
[SIZE=-1]biblecc.com/colossians/1-3.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] - 15k[/SIZE]

Luke 21:36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you ..

Acts 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his ...

Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he ... ... chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his
knees three times a day, praying and giving ... He had always praised God this way. ...

Asinner · Mar 21, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
effectual to me signifies effectual.

okeedokee

GenemZ · Mar 21, 2008

Montalban said:
Was he instructed by the Bible?

YES!

What did Paul say about the Scriptures that existed when he began his ministry?

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

ALL SCRIPTURE! The OT was what he had for the most part! Not just the New, that was far from being completed as Paul taught the Church, Gentiles, at that! Mostly all he had was the OT Scriptures.

Galatians 3:8 (New International Version)
"The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

Romans 9:17 (New International Version)
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Romans 4:3 (New International Version)
"What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Romans 1:1-2 (New International Version)
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures."

Had enough?

Some more!

To show you examples of how OT Scripture peppered Paul's NT Epistles.

1 Corinthians 9:9 (New International Version)
"For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?"

1 Corinthians 14:20-22 (New International Version)
"Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers."

You need to study your Bible more than you have been. If you had? You would never had made such remarks as you have been in this thread about OT Scriptures. Many of the doctrinal principles we find in the NT were based upon the foundation of OT teachings. That is one reason why God only called Jews as the Apostles! For without that foundation of understanding that they were taught from their youth, the NT teachings would not make sense.

In Christ, GeneZ

.

GenemZ · Mar 21, 2008

Montalban said:
genez had said that Paul, as an Apostle had a direct revelation from God, as a suggestion to explain why he didn't need the written word, but the Bible itself doesn't give this 'excuse'.

What do you believe?

That's silly. Paul had direct revelation in regards to the mystery doctrines! Not in all he taught.

Paul utilized the Torah writings throughout his teachings!

In regards to the mystery of the Church and what it was called for? That, was not included in the OT. And, for that teaching Paul was called to receive direct revelation... so it could become Scripture!

Colossians 1:25-27 (New International Version)
"I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Paul had to STUDY to show himself approved! That means he had to read existing Scriptures. That? Was the OT Scriptures! Even many things Paul received as direct revelation, he learned to correlate with the OT Scriptures!

In Christ, GeneZ

.

sunlover1 · Mar 21, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunlover1

Context helps.
Here's how some Greek Scholars saw it:

7 When you pray, dont babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
8 Dont be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

I think it's the repeating again and again that's the
'vain' part.

Philothei said:
Where is the context ... not even who is this greek scholar...???

I put the entire verse there, rather than us
just trying to understand 'vain repetition', the
rest of the passage explains itself.

The Greek scholars?
Those who translated that Bible Version that
I posted.

Vain repetition without thinking is just that... You are right... But the responsibility falls on one's head about not repeating in vain but praying..

Amen.
That's why I dont pray the rosary anymore, although
when I prayed the 'act of contrition' I meant it
from my heart. (not sure if you know that prayer,
it was a catholic prayer)

Also praying on your own how does this safeguards .... vain talking without thinking?

Dunno, that passage was about vain 'repetition'.

Philothei said:
So... why David's psalms are repetitive? he must have been .... out of it I guess...

Cant be that.

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

Seeking Salvation

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Seeking Salvation

Well-Known Member

Love never fails

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Seeking Salvation

Well-Known Member

Love never fails

Well-Known Member

Seeking Salvation

Well-Known Member

Love never fails

Seeking Salvation

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Beloved, Let us love one another

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency