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But without leaders, there wouldn't be anyone to lead us into heresy. The more trust you place in some priest to understand things for you, the less you trust in the Spirit to teach us all things, as Paul suggests.
BTW, do you think the teachings of your church are infallible?
Well you reject them.Excuse me?
So you don't know if you're wrong now, which is what I stated. There's no test, until after the fact.When I learn a more reasonable answer or is somehow convinced/convicted of something else.
Whatever else you use would still be you.I regard logic highly, yes, but I don't let logic solely decide what I believe about spiritual things.
Cool. Which church fathers do you follow then?Me neither
Except the bits of the Bible you reject.That's why it's so good that we have the Spirit, the bible, each other, and so forth.
I agree. But it's like God saying "I'll pick you up if you wait here" and you ignoring him by going somewhere else doing something else and saying "Well, he's God, he'll come and get me"I think that ultimately, we are to rely on Him.
So I can't know Islam unless God leads me to it?Unless God Himself reveals anything to us, we don't have true knowledge about it.
And he said how we should meet himWe could read the bible back and forth and be members of the most traditional church in the world and be the smartest people who ever lived - we wouldn't know God unless He chose to reveal Himself.
No. I believe PaulJust like you, then.
Based on history.You personally think that the hair length stuff should be taken literally and personally.
That's like you arguing that because I read history I'm just believing history to be correct.Because the church tells you so, I presume, and because you personally believe the church must be right. Correct?
I don't interpret the Bible. It's not up to private interpretation. Peter says soI interpret the bible. You interpret the bible. The only difference is how we interpret it.
The nature of truth and Jesus saying the gates of hell would not prevail against his church.Where does that idea come from?
Cite me this, about being flat. I've already talked of the 'corners'. Being poetical is not being erroneousWell, it does speak about the earth being flat, as in having corners and such.
Well you keep saying these things but I've not seen any evidence from you.And that it stands on poles. Well, the bible may not "preach" that the earth is flat, but at least some of the writers of the bible assumed that it is. Honest mistake, could happen to anybody. Does happen to anybody.
Doing your own thing. He calls people to unity of faith and following of leaders. As noted, Jesus appointed leaders, shepherds. Acts shows Phillip teaching. The whole point of having teachers in the Bible points to this. But you reply continuously with your opinion.Which individualism does Paul warn about?
Uhh... the Catholic church has been free from error?
Why's it more preferable than you as an individual to discard which bits of the Bible you don't like and to say that the Bible's got errors in it anyway?
How'd you know what you know to be true? In fact it seems you wish to argue both that you're right, and that your method is full of holes; relying as it is on flawed individuals reading flawed books
Is it that simple? What denom do you belong to? Let's see how simple you guys are.
Just because Jesus said something doesn't mean we should take it literally or personally - like a lot of other things said in the old covenant.
I think christians often think that "new covenant" and what we refer to as the "new testament" are interchangeable terms, but they're really not.
You were asking Montalban, not I.Why don't you answer the question I asked, rather than create a diversion away from it?
You were asking Montalban, not I.
And again I ask: why the condescending attitude?
That's why I study Scripture.This is what i am saying...
Someone HAS TO BE RIGHT!
That's not what it says though, in the Scriptures:Because of the words of Christ 'the gates of hell shall not prevail' means that Church would be here for every generation, and that Church would not teach error, and they would be the same Church instituted that very day by Christ.
NOW...if you say you love truth and you want truth because it will nourish you like no other...then you must recognise that that Church must exist, does exist, and the doctrines are still with us the same as the day the Holy Spirit descended on the men who preached it.
If you agree that St John & St Paul belong in scriptures, and you agree they had the Holy Spirit to write scriptures, then you must agree with htem when they tell us;
2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.
...and...
13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.
Galatians 1
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.
Galatians 1
7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Acts Of Apostles 2
42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Romans 6
17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.
Romans 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 John 4
6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us
Not an emperor, never have and never will be (except for when I get my own place - a man's house is his castleI was not being that way. That's why this is turning into a diversion away from the question.
Which was...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montalban
Why's it more preferable than you as an individual to discard which bits of the Bible you don't like and to say that the Bible's got errors in it anyway?
How'd you know what you know to be true? In fact it seems you wish to argue both that you're right, and that your method is full of holes; relying as it is on flawed individuals reading flawed books.
response:
So? You only know something is true because an early father said so? They were never wrong? Never disagreed?
.........................................................................
Emperor Constantine? Can you answer it?
You are an Emperor? How humble of you to answer your lowly servant.
This is what i am saying...
Someone HAS TO BE RIGHT!
Because of the words of Christ 'the gates of hell shall not prevail' means that Church would be here for every generation, and that Church would not teach error, and they would be the same Church instituted that very day by Christ.
NOW...if you say you love truth and you want truth because it will nourish you like no other...then you must recognise that that Church must exist, does exist, and the doctrines are still with us the same as the day the Holy Spirit descended on the men who preached it.
The Holy Spirit doesn't change, and He is capable [as God] to keep everything on track.
If you agree that St John & St Paul belong in scriptures, and you agree they had the Holy Spirit to write scriptures, then you must agree with htem when they tell us;
2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.
...and...
13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.
Galatians 1
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.
Galatians 1
7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Acts Of Apostles 2
42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Romans 6
17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.
Romans 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 John 4
6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.
Not an emperor, never have and never will be (except for when I get my own place - a man's house is his castle)
That's encouraging to know. God wanted these hearts (90%) weeded out; and at the same time, it was a test to see if the church would compromise on his Word as to win the approval of men.Because there may not have been complete 100% agreement between the Fathers over every finite detail (coffee and donuts after worship, or a meal? - that sort of thing) they did all agree on things that were important. Christological, sacramental and spiritual matters, for instance, the Fathers did agree on. Whenever there was a heresy, ranging from Arianism to Iconoclasm, they did agree on the orthodox (note small o) position even though it may not have been the catholic (note small c) position. When the heresy of Arianism was rampant, less than 10% of the populous stayed on the straight and narrow path, so to say.
What the Fathers do have to say is important since they were on this earth in those early centuries of Christianity and since they were here in times of heresy.
On the other hand, learned Protestant teachers can learn from all of them without regard to a bias.Between the East (Eastern Orthodoxy) and the West (Roman Catholicism and Protestantism) different Fathers are looked to. The West prefers to refer to theologians such as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. The East prefers to refer to theologians such as St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John of Damascus and St. Cyril of Alexandria. As well as others such as the Desert Fathers; I believe St. Isaac the Syrian was one.
There you go. Eastern church consists of heretics. Right?Since Augustine was from the West and John Chrysostom from the East; there will be a difference of opinion in different matters. I believe that Roman Catholics claim that Augustine supported papal supremacy, whilst St. John Chrysostom did not support papal supremacy.
I have no problem with that. Its just that all insight to be had did not stop back then. God's Truth keeps marching on!Does this mean that we are to use the works and writings of one Father over the other? No. Does this mean that the writings of one are better than the other? Depends on who you ask. Does this mean that the two completely disagreed on every single topic, heresy or issue that came up? No.
We know that things are true because they were believed by many before us. And we have the history and records to support it. St. Athanasius was a key refuter of Arianism. He said that Christ was both man and God. Christians as a whole believe this, yet few of us remember the history (EO, RC and OO mainly).
Do Orthodox Christians today believe that Christ is man and God in one body and that Mary is the Theotokos (God-bearer)? Yes; this too was decided at an Ecumenical Council and we care because the Ecum. Councils consisted of the whole Church; not just bits and pieces. What was decided there was decided throughout the Church.
The Orthodox faith had its last bit of major theological development in 787 at Nicea during the Seventh Ecumenical Council. This one determined that the veneration of icons are ok since they are spiritual tools as well as evidence that God did manifest Himself as man (Christ).
Our faith is that which is something handed down generation to generation; similar to an heirloom. We do not add to it, nor do we take from it.
We do not compromise it, because we can not compromise it and doing so would be insulting to God, basically telling Him that what He has given us is not good enough to exist.
I realize that. Learned Protestant teachers study the early fathers, as well. But, back then they still were not holders of all the truth that the Bible contains. My gripe is that certain churches are stuck back on the level of spiritual progress that ended centuries ago.
we learned it from the best.So, in the NT Jesus picks 12 to teach, and for them to teach.
Deacons, priests and bishops are shown.
Jesus says his church will never fail
Paul tells us to obey our leaders.
Throw it all away and have the cult of the individual; each man his own Pope believing just like every other one that the Holy Spirit is guiding them all to diverse and different opinions.
Jesus established unity. Protestantism established disunity.
we learned it from the best.
You might be oversimplifying, bro...So, in the NT Jesus picks 12 to teach, and for them to teach.
good morning!
yeah, there's something to that.
somethin' to do with task orientation becoming obsessive/compulsive and preoccupation with hierarchy, pomp, & circumstance distracting us from personaly relating to Whom all that is supposed to be pointing us toward.
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