Yhvh

[visionary]

[YHVH] (Hebrew, Yod Heh Vau Heh, read right to left)

The four letter tetragrammaton (Greek meaning ‘four letters’) is the ‘true’ name of the God of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[visionary]

I must apologize, but the website took YHVH as a word and changed what I had written. Will need a mod to correct it for me...

I want this thread to be about learning the meaning of the symbols that make up the name and the symbolic stories they tell us.

 

[visionary]

Isaiah 41:4 “Who has performed and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, יהוה, am the first, and with the last I am He.’ ”

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus said יהוה, Sovereign of Yisra’ĕl, and his Redeemer, יהוה of hosts, ‘I am the First and I am the Last, besides Me there is no Elohim.”

Revelation 1:8 “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Do the symbols [letters of His name] relate to the beginning and the end?

 

[FredVB]

visionary, thank you for bringing up this topic. I do not know what you saw that was a change in the title different from what you wrote, but it looks alright to me, clearly showing the name of God is the topic. As it is a topic from the Bible just as much as any other, I do not know why it is dealt with so little. Mu position that I would share here is that the revealed name, which through historical evidence we can be confident was "Yahweh", was not consisting of a meaning from the Hebrew language, although that is a common position, but was simply the revealed name of God, which he spoke to Moses. In saying it was always to be remembered, he answered Moses question what to say to Israelites who asked for the Name of God who sent him to them to say "I am that I am", which in the Hebrew language was a phrase that sounded like the name and was to be remembered in association with the name of God, which is used about 7000 times in scripture in referring to him and speaking of people of God who spoke to him and of him using his name, connected to the nature of him who is the Creator and is self-existent. There are a great many times God speaking concludes with the phrase "I Am Yahweh".

I have tried speaking on this a little before, including attempting to start a thread where I make points having to do with this at http://www.christianforums.com/t7453767/

 

[visionary]

YOD

http://www.hebrew4christians.net/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Yod/yod.html

 

[visionary]

It goes back to the very symbols used to spell His Name... YHVH.. each one of these letters actually tells a story and put together means a lot more than just a sound.

Exodus 20:24,“In every place where I cause My Name to be remembered I will come to you and I will bless you.

To the hebrew mind, He immediately goes to each letter and reads what each symbol of His Name is and sees more than just a sound. Remember they felt that the sound of His Name was too sacred to speak, so they concentrated on the actual letters themselves and gain a few prophectic meanings from it.

For example..

YHVH is the symbol of all universal existence translated from Hebrew as follows:

HYH (Hayah) means was

HVH (Hoveh) means is

YHY (Yehiyeh) means will be

Does that remind you of something Yeshua said?

YHVH comes from the Hebrew verb "to be" and is the special name that God revealed to Moses at the burning bush. "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM; and He said, thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you... this is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations'" (Exodus 3:14-15).

Therefore, YHVH declares God's absolute being - the source of everything, without beginning and without end.

Does that not remind you of something else?

In John 8:56-9, Jesus presents himself as the "I AM." When challenged by some Jewish leaders regarding His claim of seeing Abraham (who lived some 2000 years earlier), Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."

Those Jewish leaders understood that Jesus was claiming to be YHVH. This is clearly established when they tried to stone Him to death for what they considered blasphemy under Jewish Law.

In Romans 10:9, Paul declares, "if you confess with your mouth Yeshua as LORD... you shall be saved." Immediately thereafter, in Romans 10:13, Paul backs up this declaration by quoting the Old Testament, "Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD (YHVH) will be saved" (Joel 2:32).

 

[FredVB]

Glad to see the response. If you have checked on what things I have written previously, you would see I have made a number of the same points. Clearly Christ is shown to be Yahweh incarnate as human. You wrote, they felt that the sound of His Name was too sacred to speak. If you see what I have said in the past, the point is made that throughout the time of at least what was covered by the old testament, the people of God freely spoke the the name of Yahweh to him and about him, and Jesus would obediently have done so, as you say, we were told "This is how I am to be recalled for all generations".

Interesting idea about the Hebrew letters showing meaning to the Hebrew reader. It is new to me. Where did you learn this from? Does anything in scripture give some support for that? I would like to know.

 

[visionary]

The words of the Shema are written on a tiny scroll of parchment, along with the words of a companion passage, Deut. 11:13-21. On the back of the scroll, a name of G-d is written. The scroll is then rolled up and placed in the case, so that the first letter of the Name (the letter Shin) is visible (or, more commonly, the letter Shin is written on the outside of the case).

I understand that the difference between YHVH and Yeshua is the Shin.

 

[visionary]

Another interesting thing...

Moses, M Sh H, or Yeheshuah, which is Y H Sh V H has the same letters as YHVH with Shin in the middle. Shin also stands for the Shekinah.

 

[yonah_mishael]

The words of the Shema are written on a tiny scroll of parchment, along with the words of a companion passage, Deut. 11:13-21. On the back of the scroll, a name of G-d is written. The scroll is then rolled up and placed in the case, so that the first letter of the Name (the letter Shin) is visible (or, more commonly, the letter Shin is written on the outside of the case).

I understand that the difference between YHVH and Yeshua is the Shin.

What do you mean that "a name of G-d is written" on the back of the parchment? The name that is written is SHADDAI (שד&#1497, "The Almighty." What does that have to do with Yeshua?

I guess my suggestion of avoiding strictly religious issues is out of the way. I have avoided this thread, assuming that it would be enough not to comment, but this particular post deserves some attention. The name of Yeshua is not written on our mezuzot, nor does the shin stand for that name.

There is also an ayin (&#1506 in the name of Yeshua (ישו&#1506 that doesn't appear in the Tetragrammaton.

For the rest of the posters, this thread would be completely off-limits to a religious Jew. We do not speak God's holy name, and the purposes of this thread are beyond the limits of what we think it proper to debate. God's name is meforash (מפור&#1513, interpreted rather than spoken. We do not speak it, and I would think that it would be a general issue of propriety when dealing with Jews that you wouldn't address this issue either. I find this thread offensive, personally.

This is all I intend to write in this thread. I would like to reiterate my request that personal religious persuasions be reserved for boards dealing with religious topics. If this board is for learning biblical Hebrew, then let's learn biblical Hebrew and not wax eloquent about things that are beyond our expertise (such as, how Jews feel when they read Hebrew and what the magical meaning of God's name is).

My humble request,
Yonah

 

[yonah_mishael]

Another interesting thing...

Moses, M Sh H, or Yeheshuah, which is Y H Sh V H has the same letters as YHVH with Shin in the middle. Shin also stands for the Shekinah.

Yehoshua (יהוש&#1506 is Yod Heh Vav Shin Ayin. You're missing the ayin, and the shin isn't in the middle. Why make this stuff up and confuse people who already know too little about these subjects?

 

[MPaul]

My experience has led me to decide, that if I don't really know the other person, I do not discuss the meaning of the Tetragrammaton. Most often it ends up going no place useful. There is just way too much stuff around about this subject that is unverified... and well, weird. If I know the other people well, then I might discuss it. But it's just one of those subjects. It get very touchy and emotional.

 

[yonah_mishael]

My experience has led me to decide, that if I don't really know the other person, I do not discuss the meaning of the Tetragrammaton. Most often it ends up going no place useful. There is just way too much stuff around about this subject that is unverified... and well, weird. If I know the other people well, then I might discuss it. But it's just one of those subjects. It get very touchy and emotional.

Couldn't agree more. It's definitely not something to interrupt a basic Hebrew study for. You know?

The Tetragrammaton is the most common word in the Bible. It's the name of God. Although the Kabbalists run wild in speculations about its mystical attributes, it's not worthwhile for a basic Hebrew study. We need to go through how to understand the Bible. Kabbalistic speculations can wait until later (when I'm no longer here). I'm not one for the Kabbalah, and even less for sitting around listening to the same type of pontifications coming from someone with no experience in the Hebrew text. It just irritates me.

 

[visionary]

Yehoshua (יהוש&#1506 is Yod Heh Vav Shin Ayin. You're missing the ayin, and the shin isn't in the middle. Why make this stuff up and confuse people who already know too little about these subjects?

Yehoshua..??

 

[FredVB]

yonah mishael, you were saying:

>For the rest of the posters, this thread would be completely off-limits to a religious Jew. We do not speak God's holy name, and the purposes of this thread are beyond the limits of what we think it proper to debate. God's name is meforash (מפור&#1513, interpreted rather than spoken. We do not speak it, and I would think that it would be a general issue of propriety when dealing with Jews that you wouldn't address this issue either. I find this thread offensive, personally.

>It's definitely not something to interrupt a basic Hebrew study for.

Sincerely I meant no offense in posting here. I in fact did not come to the thread by its category but in seeing it listed among threads, and, as the name of God is definitely, as I can show, a Biblical topic, I thought it was something to put a comment in, as I have posted a similar point before. As you say it is offensive, I would suppose you would not look at my earlier posting related to this. Without you needing to go there then, I would just want to respond to what you said by pointing out that following Jewish tradition of the time that Jewish leaders pushed followers to not pronounce the name of God is not a good idea without Biblical basis. In old testament times, it is clear from many passages that people of God freely used the name ... in speaking of him and to him, and not speaking his name in vain, which would be the case if not really speaking of him or to him. The commandments should really have us speaking it, but not without an attitude of reverence to him.as it was to be remembered, for all generations (Exodus 3 v 15), and Jewish tradition was going to permit it to be forgotten by not being spoken, but this later than the time the Hebrew scriptures were written, those who promoted the tradition were disobedient to God.

I am not in fact into Kabbalism or any aberrant movement.

As this was a distinct thread, and I just looked at it when finding it in a list and responded to the thread itself, I could not see how it was interrupting a study or anything.

The gospel however offends some people, but surely for that it should not mean we should never speak the gospel, and to not be offended is not a protected right.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yehoshua..??

Oh, I may have presumed too much in connecting your "Yeheshua" to the Hebrew name יהושע. Perhaps you were transliterating something else, maybe from Aramaic or Arabic, or even some name that just doesn't exist in Hebrew. Was I wrong in assuming that your "Yeheshua" was a mistake for the Hebrew name? I shouldn't have assumed that what you were writing actually corresponded to something real in the Hebrew language, so correct my assumption, please.

Thanks,
Yonah

 

[yonah_mishael]

Fred,

Sincerely I meant no offense in posting here.

Honest dealings with the name of God don't offend me. I just get offended when people start jumping through hoops to re-interpret the name of God. Know what I mean?

I in fact did not come to the thread by its category but in seeing it listed among threads, and, as the name of God is definitely, as I can show, a Biblical topic, I thought it was something to put a comment in, as I have posted a similar point before.

I already stated above that the name of God is the most common word in the Bible. It's definitely a subject that has relevance to the Bible. But it takes thirty seconds to make a post saying that the combination of yod-heh-vav-heh (י.ה.ו.&#1492 is the holy name of God in the Bible and then to mention that it's related to the verb "to be," perhaps as a combination of the past (היה, which is הוה in Aramaic) and the future (יהי&#1492 tenses. (Contrary to what was pasted above, there is no present tense "is" in Hebrew, though there is a present participle הווה, "being".) This shouldn't take a long thread that goes into all kinds of interpretive hoops to give it religious bents that have nothing to do with the Hebrew Bible. That's my issue. I feel like the name gets drug through the mud when it's over-interpreted and focused on for whatever reason other than to praise God.

As you say it is offensive, I would suppose you would not look at my earlier posting related to this. Without you needing to go there then, I would just want to respond to what you said by pointing out that following Jewish tradition of the time that Jewish leaders pushed followers to not pronounce the name of God is not a good idea without Biblical basis. In old testament times, it is clear from many passages that people of God freely used the name ... in speaking of him and to him, and not speaking his name in vain, which would be the case if not really speaking of him or to him.

I agree that the name appears to have been spoken regularly, but either way it is not permissible for Jews today to say God's name (if not just for the fact that we do not rightly know how it should be pronounced). Why presume to know what one doesn't?

The commandments should really have us speaking it, but not without an attitude of reverence to him.as it was to be remembered, for all generations (Exodus 3 v 15), and Jewish tradition was going to permit it to be forgotten by not being spoken, but this later than the time the Hebrew scriptures were written, those who promoted the tradition were disobedient to God.

God's name is not forgotten among the Jews. The pronunciation isn't certainly, but his name is used all the time in the Jewish Scriptures. It was far more likely, don't you think?, that Christianity would cause it to be forgotten, since they translated the Scriptures into other languages and forgot about the Hebrew?

I am not in fact into Kabbalism or any aberrant movement.

Kabbalah isn't aberrant from the perspective of most Orthodox Jews.

As this was a distinct thread, and I just looked at it when finding it in a list and responded to the thread itself, I could not see how it was interrupting a study or anything.

No problem.

The gospel however offends some people, but surely for that it should not mean we should never speak the gospel, and to not be offended is not a protected right.

Indeed not. This is a Christian forum, and you're free to talk about any and all Christian topics. I'm not any authority on this forum. But specifically in the "Classic Hebrew" forum, if I'm to participate in helping people learn Hebrew, I do not want my efforts at getting people to read and understand the Hebrew Bible destroyed by missionizing and propaganda. I can't just ignore this when it contradicts the plain text of the Hebrew Bible. This is why I asked, in context of the Hebrew study, that people keep their religious opinions to themselves. If that isn't done, I cannot suffer the disrespect to God's name (if even only perceived by us Jews) while remaining in participation in this forum.

I would repeat my request (not to you, Fred, but to the forum in general) that religious commitment and messianic claims and discussion about that (either pro or con) be reserved for the other forums on this site. If we're going to study Hebrew together, then it needs to be about Hebrew so that we can avoid the disagreements.

Thanks,
Yonah

 

[FredVB]

Yonah, as it seems clear this topic you consider ill-placed here, I will not keep posting in it. I just want to respond at least just this once more to a part of what you said.

> I agree that the name appears to have been spoken regularly, but either way it is not permissible for Jews today to say God's name (if not just for the fact that we do not rightly know how it should be pronounced). Why presume to know what one doesn't?

Originally Posted by Fred V B

>The commandments should really have us speaking it, but not without an attitude of reverence to him.as it was to be remembered, for all generations (Exodus 3 v 15), and Jewish tradition was going to permit it to be forgotten by not being spoken, but this later than the time the Hebrew scriptures were written, those who promoted the tradition were disobedient to God.
​

> God's name is not forgotten among the Jews. The pronunciation isn't certainly, but his name is used all the time in the Jewish Scriptures. It was far more likely, don't you think?, that Christianity would cause it to be forgotten, since they translated the Scriptures into other languages and forgot about the Hebrew?

If we agree scripture called for the name to be spoken... and pronounced... regularly, why should it become not permissible, when that would not come from scripture, but rather the traditions I mentioned? And you say it being for the fact you do not know how it is pronounced, why presume to know it? That is very much something I am referring to about being forgotten, even if Jews can know the four consonants. I do not know about when Christians were forgetting it, but it was not forgotten among the first Christians. But the point I have been making is that if God said it was for all generations, as God would not be mistaken about it, and knowing all the history yet to come, it is logical the name with its pronunciation was not totally forgotten, even if most Jews will not use it, even with saying as you have that the pronunciation is forgotten, although generally not for that reason. There is ancient Greek writing that is known that puts the pronunciation with Greek letters, which maybe you would not want to see, but as God as I said knew what he was saying, it is reasonable to conclude this preserved pronunciation is the true one, as there is no likely contender.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Fred,

There is ancient Greek writing that is known that puts the pronunciation with Greek letters, which maybe you would not want to see, but as God as I said knew what he was saying, it is reasonable to conclude this preserved pronunciation is the true one, as there is no likely contender.

This issue is much more complicated than you've portrayed it here. There are multiple attempts in Greek texts to transliterate the pronunciation of the name (from ΙΑΒΕ to ΙΑΟΥΗ among others). The issue has been debated ad nauseum on the B-Hebrew listserv, and it's never been settled. It was as conjectural among early Christians as it is today. Everyone's got his opinion of how it should be pronounced. There's no consensus, and that's enough to cause me not to want to pronounce it.

Either way, thanks for a civil conversation on the topic. I wish you well in your continued participation on Christian Forums and in your personal life.

Yonah

 

[Marie Lynn]

But specifically in the "Classic Hebrew" forum, if I'm to participate in helping people learn Hebrew, I do not want my efforts at getting people to read and understand the Hebrew Bible destroyed by missionizing and propaganda. I can't just ignore this when it contradicts the plain text of the Hebrew Bible. This is why I asked, in context of the Hebrew study, that people keep their religious opinions to themselves. If that isn't done, I cannot suffer the disrespect to God's name (if even only perceived by us Jews) while remaining in participation in this forum.

I very much agree Yonah, as I came here in hopes of furthering my education with the Hebrew language, by learning the grammar, in context of what the Tanach really has to say.
Not to have to read about all the mysterious interpretations of the Hebrew letters.
Although, I am not Jewish, I also find the disrespect to Gods name offensive, and after several years of studying the Hebrew language, this is in no way what studying the plain meaning of the text is about.



I hope this board will return to its regular biblical Hebrew language study.