Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

WarriorAngel · Feb 12, 2007

'Hail Mary, FULL of Grace, the Lord is WITH thee, and Blessed art thou amongst women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus!'

Hail Mary ~ Highest honor in greeting. [hence she was troubled by this greeting]
Full of Grace ~ The first human, who not only was filled by the Grace of the Spirit, but had conceived through the Spirit.
The LORD is WITH thee ~ How many could ever say that? None. WITH means many things. Conjoined, aside, within, and along.
Blessed art thou amongst women ~ No other woman was granted such a position as to be the Mother of God. Among all women ever, she is most blessed. And that is for all times. [All generations shall call me Blessed]
AND Blessed is the fruit of thy womb ~ [Jesus.]
So she is as blessed AS the fruit of Her Womb....
Much like the foreshadowing Genesis 3;15

Peace!

racer · Feb 12, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Psst . .. be careful about bursting those bubbles some have . . they don't know about all those ancient prayers and hymns and liturgies of the Christian Church that refer to Mary as Ever Virgin . . . We don't want to give them a heart attack . . . they might find out they are wrong . . ..

.

In order to prevent confusion and muddling-up of this thread, could we please save such rhetoric for PMs . . . . it would also spare feelings and avoid offending others.

Thank you!

WarriorAngel · Feb 12, 2007

Now, since Mary is filled with Grace, and most Blessed....
Anyone wish to tell me why she would have a need to have siblings for God?

Doesnt the OT tell us that a 'gate' the Lord passes through, that no man will pass through...?

How is a gate held in higher regard than the woman most Blessed who carries the WORD OF GOD ...GOD HIMSELF, not as high in regard?

To ponder a close relationship to God would be to understand all the foreshadowing of not only the Son, but His Most blessed Mother too.

No gate, no womb.

racer · Feb 12, 2007

WarriorAngel said:
Matthew originally wrote his in Aramaic....as was the language of Christ.

I've been meaning to ask and don't remember if I did, but does anybody know what the term was in Aramaic?

racer · Feb 12, 2007

WarriorAngel said:
Perhaps you could explain how Mary had a sister Mary.

Okay, I've done some reading, someone mentioned that this could have been Mary's sister-in-law . . . . .

Cribstyl · Feb 12, 2007

OrthodoxyUSA said:
So then, everything in Christianity that was not recorded Biblically has no value to you?

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How do you reconcile yourself to 2Th 2:15?

And BTW ~ We are now approaching a line at which you would need to be able to show what books are to be contained in the Bible that you believe, for there is certainly more text in one Bible than in another... and the KJV is incomplete.

Forgive me...

Sheeze... If this is the one of the main text used to reenforce traditions, that doctrine is not establish by that text.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Anyone can notice the word "OR" can see that if this text used the word "AND" instead, then your argument can be made valid that "the traditions" Paul is talking about were not written.

But this text makes it clear that... "by word or our epistle".. SO, both by "word and our epistle" contains the traditions that Paul is speaking about.

The bottom line is "traditions" are not doctrines outside of scriptures.

"Our epistle" is most likely what Paul, Silvanus and Timothy wrote before to these Thessalonians.....................1Th 1:1¶Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

IN PEACE
CRIB

racer · Feb 12, 2007

WarriorAngel said:
Lamb, the use of 'of' meant a consumated marriage.

Which is why we see no where Mary 'of' Joseph.

So, since Mary and Joseph never consumated their marriage, she was not the "wife of" Joseph?

The common use of the wife to be called of [insert husbands name] was how they knew who was married to someone else.

But, Mary and Joseph were married . . . . weren't they?

Just wanted to observe cultural differences.

Thanks. That's always interesting.

racer · Feb 12, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Im no good at original languages, but I am curious here (in accordance with this reasoning)

For example here...

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Why say "cousin" (of mary) in regards to Elizabeth here but exclude it elsewhere? Like adopting it to one place and not the next?

Peace

Fireinfolding

Good question! Has anybody addressed this? If so, could you direct me to the response . . . .

racer · Feb 12, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. Interesting.
I am going to try and find the thread an atheist started awhile back concerning the family of Jesus calling him "possesed and crazy".
It was a bad translation of passages that made it appear that way. I am going to hunt it up. Sheeesh, I found it and it was a pretty heated thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3291089-did-mary-know-jesus-was-the-messiah.html
Did Mary know jesus was the messiah
Page 61 of the GA board.

3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dativecase) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal (on account of):-

I believe it is in the genitive case here:

[ISA] Mark 3:19 and Judas Iscariot who even betrayed Him and He is coming into/toward a house 20 and is coming together again the throng, so as no to be enabled them no yet bread to be eating 21 And hearing the ones near/para[#3844] of Him, came out to take hold of Him , for they said that He was astonished/bewildered [#1839]. ..................... 22 and the scribes who [are] from Jerusalem having come down, said--`He hath Beelzeboul,' and--`By the ruler of the demons he doth cast out the demons.' .........31 Then come do his brethren and mother, and standing without, they sent unto him, calling him, 32 and a multitude was sitting about him,

Hey, if you two have discovered, uncovered or whatever somethign regarding my questions, can you please, please, please . . . . repeat it in English for me? You're confusing me terribly . . . .

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 12, 2007

racer said:
So, since Mary and Joseph never consumated their marriage, she was not the "wife of" Joseph?

But, Mary and Joseph were married . . . . weren't they?

Thanks. That's always interesting.

Betrothed and unwedded.

Rejoice O unwedded bride... (ancient Christian wedding hymn)

Forgive me...

Asinner · Feb 12, 2007

Where are all the Greeks and Jews when you need them?

Asinner · Feb 12, 2007

Asinner said:
Where are all the Greeks and Jews when you need them?

Which reminds me of a joke I just heard . . .

GREEK JEWS

Two Jewish men, Sid and Al, were sitting in a Greek restaurant Sid asked Al, "Are there any people of our faith born and raised in Greece?"

Al replied, "I don't know, let's ask our waiter."

When the waiter came by, Al asked him, "Are there any Greek Jews?" And the waiter said, "Aronno, I ask the cooks."

He returned from the kitchen in a few minutes and said, "No ser, no Greek Jews."

Al wasn't really satisfied with that and asked, "Are you absolutely sure?"

The waiter, realizing he was dealing with "xenoi" gave the expected answer, "I check again," and went back into the kitchen.

While the waiter was away, Sid said, "I find it hard to believe that there are no Jews in Greece. Our people are scattered everywhere."

The waiter returned and said, "The head cook say there is no Greek Jews."

"Are you certain?" Al asked once again. "I can't believe there are no Greek Jews!"

"I ask EVERYONE," replied the exasperated waiter. "All we have is Orange Jews, Prune Jews, Tomato Jews, and Grape Jews."

racer · Feb 12, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Hi racer . . . . I am sure this has been dealt with already, as I have not read the thread, but in case this answer hasn't been given yet:

TLF, sorry I am just now getting to this post. This thread has grown way fast!

The word "until" is a word in Greek that speaks of the time in consideration not of what happens after that time. It has no meaning one way or the other regarding what happens after the point in time is reached it has in mind.

We see this played out in other uses of this word. For instance:
2Sa 6:23 And there was no child to Michal the daughter of Saul until the day of her death.
To mandate that the word "until" means that after the point it takes us to is reached, the situation changes would mandate that Michal had children AFTER her death . .

I've seen this argument which could be a valid point and is certainly worthy of further thought. And in the past I have mulled over this point. We often see the phrase, " . . . until the end of time . . ." Now, what could that mean? Because logic tells us all that at the end of time everything ceases to be, so therefore, nothing happened after such time. Right? The point of such a statement as you have quoted above could be as simple as saying that "Micah and the daughter of Saul" never had children . . . ever. That is the only suitable inference to that verse, because we certainly know that she did not have children after she passed . . . .

So, if someone can show where it is said that Mary remained a virgin "until the time of her death," I will happily concede that she was a Perpetual Virgin.

Of course that is nonsensical, and so it can't mandate such a meaning.

The verse you quoted simply means this was the state of affairs up to this point . . it says nothing about the state of affairs after this point and implies nothing one way or the other . . .

So, then what does it say about what occurred after that point? Why was this particular point used as a "marker for time?" What significance does it have? Is the author's way of saying that he does not know what occurred after that time?

It has to do with the various langauges involved . . Aramaic being translated into Hebrew and Greek . . my undertanding is that in Aramaic there are not as many words to use as in Greek, and, as is common in translations, a word that usually translates a word in another langauge so that the full range of meaning in the original language is brought forward as much as possible many times means using a different word than one would normally use for a particular meaning . .

But, even if the original word used in Aramaic is generic and covers a variety of meanings, as the texts are translated to languages that do consist of more varied and specific texts, why would not the most accurate words have been used?

The Greek word used is used of kinsman . . near and remote . . . There is nothing that mandates an understanding that these were blood brothers and sisters from Mary's womb.

Then why the distinction between "brothers and sisters" or as you argue the distinction between "male cousins and female cousins?"

racer · Feb 12, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
Has anyone mentioned that in Jewish tradition when someone was a only child, their cousins was considered their siblings?

I don't believe anybody has, but it is definitely worth mentioning if it is so. Anybody know for sure?

Rowan · Feb 12, 2007

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Yes.

It is held and protected by The Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

The Chapel of The Tablet, Axum Ethiopia

Forgive me...

That. Is. Awesome.

Asinner · Feb 12, 2007

racer said:
So, if someone can show where it is said that Mary remained a virgin "until the time of her death," I will happily concede that she was a Perpetual Virgin.

Racer,

What do you make of Mary's response to Gabriel?

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Love,
Christina

racer · Feb 12, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Firstborn is a title . . nothing more . . it says nothing about how many children someone has . . it does not mean that there were more children.

It is a Hebraic title that conveys rights, duties and priviledges in the Old Covenant. . . . It is given to the child that opens the womb. It doesn't matter if that child is an only child or not.

John the Baptist was the Firstborn of his parents. . did they have other children? No . . .

Does Scripture refer to John the Baptist as their first born? Let's see:

Luk 1:57; Now Elisabeth's full time came that should should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

Luk 2:7; And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Hmmmmmm . . . . interesting . . . . . .

racer · Feb 12, 2007

Axion said:
What you forget is that the word adelphos was not spoken in Greek or initially orally retold and recorded in Greek. The words were spoken in ARAMAIC, in which the word used woul have been Ach - which means brother, cousin and any close kinsman. What you are basing your theories on is a TRANSLATION into Greek.

So, was there not a Greek word that specified cousin? If the original reference was to "cousins," because Aramaic did not have an adequate word for this distinction, did Greek not have a word to specify "cousin?" Why would the Greek translation specify "brothers and sisters?"

IamAdopted · Feb 12, 2007

Adelphos is also used to describe the brothers of Jesus in Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; and Acts 1:14. Adelphos is used to describe "James the Lord's brother" in Galatians 1:19. Adelphos is also used to describe the brothers Peter and Andrew (Matthew 4:18), and the brothers James and John (Matthew 4:21). Adelphe (the feminine form of adelphos) is used to describe Jesus' sisters . The word suggenes is used to describe Mary's cousin, Elizabeth (Luke 1:36). Suggenes means, "a blood relative."

racer · Feb 12, 2007

Asinner said:
Eve was a virgin pre-fall.

They were Pure pre-fall, in every way.

Love,
Christina

What do you mean every way? What specifically signifies "defilement" or "impure?" Anything besides intercourse pre-marital, post-marital or extra-marital? Is that all that makes people "impure?"

I mean Mary was human in every way. And, I don't want to be completely gross, but thinking of her perfoming certain bodily functions sounds a tad more "impure" than believing that she and Joseph were husband and wife in every natural way . . . . . The logic eludes me here . . . . .

Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

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