Yeshua was a Pharisee / Perush

[Mevaser]

Yeshua was a Pharisee / Perush

History and the Bible show that Yeshua identified Himself as a Perush. In fact, when the Perushim went out to question Yochanan about who he was, he said that one among THEM (the Perushim) was the Messiah to come (Yochanan 1:24-28). “1:24 the ones who had been sent were from the Perushim. 1:25 they asked him, "Why then do you immerse, if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" 1:26 Yochanan answered them; "I immerse in water, but among you stands one whom you don't know. 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, who is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I'm not worthy to loosen." 1:28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where Yochanan was immersing.”
Well, Yeshua didn't stand behind the Sadducee, Essene or Qumran party (although he may have agreed with some of their theology… i.e. the Essenes didn't believe in slavery) but He did stand behind the Perushim party. First we have to understand that the Pharisaical party has been given a bad rap by the Christian Church. We see the Besuras shel Mashiach (NT) saying things such as "You brood of vipers", "beware of the leaven of the Perushims" etc. This makes*sense from a Messianic perspective. I, as a Republican have a few*things to say about the Republican Party. They are not all positive;*in fact there are a few Republican politicians that I would call*downright vipers. This doesn't mean that I think all Republicans are*bad. Likewise Yeshua didn't think the Pharisaical party was all bad…* In fact He endorses them! I'll get to that in a second. (We find that even in the Talmud they are labeled "sore spots" and "plagues" and "destroyers of the world" Berakot 14b; Hagigah 14a; Sotah 3.4)

The Pharisees were a holy party;*their name means "set apart" (perushim in Hebrew). They were zealous*for G-d and strove after righteousness. The book of Macabees speaks*highly of them! By the time of the second temple period however,*some... some corruption had crept in even into some rather high*positions. Again this wasn't all of them. We see in Mark 12:28 that*one of the Scribes (most, almost all, the scribes were Perushim)*agreed with Yeshua and what He was saying.

"EVERYTHING and WHATEVER THEY TEACH YOU DO AND KEEP" This is where we see Yeshua say concerning the Perushim Theology, something that He didn't say about any other teaching or theology on the planet including the Sadducees and the Essenes and everyone else. He says this... and this is exact from Greek "Then Yeshua said to the crowds and His disciples, "the Scribes and the Perushim sit on the seat of Moses therefore, EVERYTHING and WHATEVER THEY TEACH YOU DO AND KEEP" He goes on to say just don't do as they do. This is amazing if you think about it. Here Yeshua just gave absolute endorsement to the theology of the Perushim. Whatever and Everything!!! He didn't say that about the* Essenes or the Sadducees but He made it a point about the Perushim.*

Yeshua is a Jew, a rabbi and a Pharisee, who always upheld Torah, and was Orthodox in His practices. Is this the "Yeshua" of your mind? Or do you have some one else? an idol perhaps?

Karl D. Baca
www.cmy.on.ca
אנחנו רוצים משיח עכשיו

 

[Henaynei]

Omeyn Omeyn

 

[YHVH Ori]

Taken from www sacred-texts com/jud/t10/ht105.htm

Besides, the disciples of Jesus (see App. No. 6), who then believed in his Messiahship, but not in his divinity, began secretly to undermine the Talmud, which laid more stress on external ceremonies than they deemed necessary, and endeavored with all their might to weaken its influence among the populace, but R. Jehanan b. Zakkai and the Sanhedrin in Jamnia, with Rabban Gamaliel, the son of the slain Simeon, at their head, restored the Talmud to its prestige, and took pains to raise up others in the places of the murdered sages.

Thus the study of the Talmud flourished after the destruction of the Temple, although beset with great difficulties and desperate struggles. All his days, R. Johanan b. Zakkai was obliged to dispute with Sadducees and Bathueians and, no doubt, with the Messiahists also; for although these last were Pharisees, they differed in many points from the teaching of the Talmud after their master, Jesus, had broken with the Pharisees

 

[ShirChadash]

Yes, Yeshua was a Pharisee.

 

[koilias]

Taken from www sacred-texts com/jud/t10/ht105.htm

Besides, the disciples of Jesus (see App. No. 6), who then believed in his Messiahship, but not in his divinity, began secretly to undermine the Talmud, which laid more stress on external ceremonies than they deemed necessary, and endeavored with all their might to weaken its influence among the populace, but R. Jehanan b. Zakkai and the Sanhedrin in Jamnia, with Rabban Gamaliel, the son of the slain Simeon, at their head, restored the Talmud to its prestige, and took pains to raise up others in the places of the murdered sages.

Thus the study of the Talmud flourished after the destruction of the Temple, although beset with great difficulties and desperate struggles. All his days, R. Johanan b. Zakkai was obliged to dispute with Sadducees and Bathueians and, no doubt, with the Messiahists also; for although these last were Pharisees, they differed in many points from the teaching of the Talmud after their master, Jesus, had broken with the Pharisees

I greatly disagree with this view. Yeshua never broke with the sages. Mevaser is right...just because Yeshua criticized certain pitfalls symptomatic with the Pharisaic ranks, he criticized them as one from within (exactly as the school of Hillel could criticize the school of Shammai and vice versa)...trying to improve the movement's overall pietistic outlook along the lines of the Hillel school. Yeshua enjoyed remarkable hospitality among the Pharisees and some of his disciples actually WERE Pharisees. The text reads "The Pharisees among them..." when talking about Yeshua's disciples, as Mevaser points out.

Yeshua was on quite intimate terms with the Pharisee Nicodemus, don't forget. And Nicodemus pays Yeshua the highest honor possible in Judaism by seeing to his burial.

Yeshua and Nicodemus were so intimate that they discussed together the secrets of Ma'aseh B'resheet in John 3. Only the greatest and most knowledgeable of the sages, with the utmost mutual respect for one another, could get together one on one to expound on Ma'aseh B'resheet. (By the way, Nicodemus's questions are rhetorical--typical of exchanges between Rabbis--in this encounter...he is picking Yeshua's mind, he is not an ignoramus in this discussion, but is simply prodding Yeshua to restate his doctrine better...he knows quite well what he is saying!!!)

 

[YHVH Ori]

I greatly disagree with this view. Yeshua never broke with the sages.

You can disagree with it if you want to. This is taken from 'History of the Talmud, translated by MICHAEL L. RODKINSON.'

I personally doubt Yehoshua was a Pharisee, but was just among them. Kind of like a Modalist could be among Trinitarians.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Interesting possibility. I have read another work that takes the position that he was a Pharisee. His teachings, it is true, follow closely with Hillel in many places. But it seems that if he was a pharisee officially then Rabbi Shaul wold have know him better and not have been so caught off guard. And the other pharisees would not have been so perplexed about his identity and place of birth.

CIF

 

[ShirChadash]

Someone mentioned to me once that the Pharisees would never have referred to Yeshua as "Rabbi" when they addressed Him, if He were not also a known Rabbi, and Yeshua upheld the Pharisee, more than the Saducee, interpretations and also validated the authority of the Pharisees... as He was a Pharisee.

 

[YHVH Ori]

If you take the teachings of the Pharisees and you compare them to the teachings of the Anointed Yehoshua, will you get the same conclusions on certain things? Either way, the Pharisees viewed God as a singular being, not triune; they upheld the Law of God, etc.

Just like the Anointed Yehoshua spoke against "certain Pharisees", he in the same manner could have spoke about "certain Pharisees" to be listened to. Either way, the Pharisees in the days when the Anointed Yehoshua walked this earth in his bawsar were most likely holding a different view than modern day Pharisees.

I view that spiritual walk of each individual should be as Avraham's spiritual walk was. He was modest, kind, faithful, trustworthy, kept all the Laws of God that applied to him, etc.

 

[ShirChadash]

Either way, the Pharisees viewed God as a singular being, not triune; they upheld the Law of God, etc.

So did Messiah Yeshua

He was modest, kind, faithful, trustworthy, kept all the Laws of God that applied to him, etc.

So was/ did Messiah Yeshua

 

[YHVH Ori]

By looking through the gospels, and observing how to speaks, etc, I can easily tell Yehoshua did not walk like a Gentile, but walked as a Rav who know what he was talking about; he even said in one place that his teaching is from God, not from himself which puts him ahead of any person who claims to possess pure teaching. Then you have John saying in 1st John 2:6 to walk like Yehoshua walked, and I find that to be interesting since Yehoshua did not walk like majority of Christianity/Messianicism walks.

So, it does not matter to me if he was at one point of his life among the Pharisees. What does matter to me is that he walked like Avraham but a more righteous walk than Avraham. I view Avraham and the Anointed Yehoshua as the two main examples of how one should walk and believe.

 

[sojeru]

Oh indeed Yeshuah was a pharisee, and he is chief Rabbi of the entire Rabbinate.
As Messiah said in Mattityahu 23:1-3
the shoftim and Perushim sit in the athority of Moshe [this is talmudic teaching especially pirkei Avot 1:1] "Moses recieved from G-D at Sinai the Masorah [not Besurah as messianics say.], Moses gave it to Yehoshua ben Nun, Yehoshua gave it to the Elders, the Elders to the prophets and the prophets gave it to the men of the great assembly (which was Ezra with the establishment of the Rabbi's)..."

What Messiah taught was Masorah (that which is handed down by mouth), not Besurah (news- EUANGELIO meaning "news of victory" used by pagans every time they won a war and then gave sacrifices to their gods)- and only the pharisees taught the Masorah (Oral Torah), other groups recieved the Masorah from them. Saducees did not recieve Masorah.

and this is a side note:
Before Hacham Shaul saw Messiah- he was only a "Policeman", that means he only tried to enforce Torah but with lack of understanding- very zealous.
When Messiah appeared to him, that is when he went to Jerusalem to study under Rav Gamaliel to become a Pharisaic Rav.

Messiah does indeed support 110% Rabbinical Judaism. For His grandfather was Hillel!

However, I am Orthodox of the sephardic Mission, and this is what I understand and see clearly in the Nazarean codicil

shalom

 

[sojeru]

Hi Zemirah,
you said:
the Pharisees would never have referred to Yeshua as "Rabbi" when they addressed Him,

the term and title of Rabbi was not greatly used then- so hardly any pharisee would regard another as a Rabbi, Rav and etc.
But maybe their disciples would.

 

[koilias]

Before Hacham Shaul saw Messiah- he was only a "Policeman", that means he only tried to enforce Torah but with lack of understanding- very zealous.

This is true, this is very true. Interesting that only Yehudim are sensitive enough to pick up on this salient fact...Thank you your excellency Sojeru!

Not just a policeman...but an enforcer, a "priestly" guard. "Zealous", my MJ brethren, brought to mind to ancient Jews ONE figure in Jewish history of significant import:

Pinhas...the one who slew the Israelite man and the Midianite when they profaned HaShem's covenant....Because he was so "zealous", HaShem rewarded his line the high priesthood. Pinhas is said to be Eliyahu, because both were called "zealous" in the text. Rav Shaul aspired to be cut in the same mold. He was a warrior-figure...one of the Rachabites in fact. His mission all his life was to combat heresy.

Rav Shaul was HaShem's answer to Alexander "the Great". He destroyed idolatry more than any other man in history.

 

[sojeru]

indeed your Excellency Kolyah,

It is my hope and desire that all is well with you and your loved ones, and that you are in Peace and prospering most copiously; All thanks be to HaShem most blessed is He!

what is your congregation?
They do seem to be very much Orthodox- has your rabbi recieved an Orthodox Smicha?

blessings and Peace
Antonio

 

[The Thadman]

Yeshua was a Pharisee / Perush

History and the Bible show that Yeshua identified Himself as a Perush. In fact, when the Perushim went out to question Yochanan about who he was, he said that one among THEM (the Perushim) was the Messiah to come (Yochanan 1:24-28). “1:24 the ones who had been sent were from the Perushim. 1:25 they asked him, "Why then do you immerse, if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" 1:26 Yochanan answered them; "I immerse in water, but among you stands one whom you don't know. 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, who is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I'm not worthy to loosen." 1:28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where Yochanan was immersing.”
Well, Yeshua didn't stand behind the Sadducee, Essene or Qumran party (although he may have agreed with some of their theology… i.e. the Essenes didn't believe in slavery) but He did stand behind the Perushim party. First we have to understand that the Pharisaical party has been given a bad rap by the Christian Church. We see the Besuras shel Mashiach (NT) saying things such as "You brood of vipers", "beware of the leaven of the Perushims" etc. This makes*sense from a Messianic perspective. I, as a Republican have a few*things to say about the Republican Party. They are not all positive;*in fact there are a few Republican politicians that I would call*downright vipers. This doesn't mean that I think all Republicans are*bad. Likewise Yeshua didn't think the Pharisaical party was all bad…* In fact He endorses them! I'll get to that in a second. (We find that even in the Talmud they are labeled "sore spots" and "plagues" and "destroyers of the world" Berakot 14b; Hagigah 14a; Sotah 3.4)

The Pharisees were a holy party;*their name means "set apart" (perushim in Hebrew). They were zealous*for G-d and strove after righteousness. The book of Macabees speaks*highly of them! By the time of the second temple period however,*some... some corruption had crept in even into some rather high*positions. Again this wasn't all of them. We see in Mark 12:28 that*one of the Scribes (most, almost all, the scribes were Perushim)*agreed with Yeshua and what He was saying.

"EVERYTHING and WHATEVER THEY TEACH YOU DO AND KEEP" This is where we see Yeshua say concerning the Perushim Theology, something that He didn't say about any other teaching or theology on the planet including the Sadducees and the Essenes and everyone else. He says this... and this is exact from Greek "Then Yeshua said to the crowds and His disciples, "the Scribes and the Perushim sit on the seat of Moses therefore, EVERYTHING and WHATEVER THEY TEACH YOU DO AND KEEP" He goes on to say just don't do as they do. This is amazing if you think about it. Here Yeshua just gave absolute endorsement to the theology of the Perushim. Whatever and Everything!!! He didn't say that about the* Essenes or the Sadducees but He made it a point about the Perushim.*

Yeshua is a Jew, a rabbi and a Pharisee, who always upheld Torah, and was Orthodox in His practices. Is this the "Yeshua" of your mind? Or do you have some one else? an idol perhaps?

Karl D. Baca
www.cmy.on.ca
אנחנו רוצים משיח עכשיו

This is a nice theory, but the vast majority of Jesus teachings do not allow for such an interpretation. That passage in John looks like it is referring to where they came from, not them as a group. The Gospels portray him strictly against the Oral Traditions, and only Matthew has stronger Rabbinical language. Given the whole of his teachings he commanded the people NOT to follow their teachings, but to follow them because they were in charge.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[sojeru]

Hi Thadman,

I must dreatly differ from your common thought.
Me as a Jew can look through the "NT" and see it rich in "RABBINIC LANGUAGE".

To an outsider, yes, it may seem and look like it is saying one thing; however, who can understand the *notes* of a psycologist unless one is a psycologist or is studying to be one (for this person it determines on how far he is in his learning).

Matthew is indeed rich in the writting because this is the only book that had the least amount of change done to it- this writtings is called midrash, and funny an agnostic author agreed to the same.

However, a person who recognizes the specific language of a profession will see it through the small changes to blur out the ink a little.

And with out the training that these men have went through, no one would know what they are speaking about though they may think they know.

However, all thanks to HaShem for the Jews and their keeping of the traditions of G-D in order that we Jews may attach to him- and anyone else that wises to follow.

I know that you will not agree- but i guess now we have presented our opening statements in this court.

 

[ShirChadash]

Hey guys... about this "Rabbi" title... didn't Nicodemus call Yeshua Rabbi? Was Nicodemus a Pharisee? (do I have that wrong?) See, in reading where Yeshua says that some of the Pharisees were very prideful over their title, Rabbi, it would seem consistent that Pharisees had some degree of standards over whom they would call a fellow Rabbi.

I appreciate this thread, BTW.

 

[koilias]

what is your congregation?
They do seem to be very much Orthodox- has your rabbi recieved an Orthodox Smicha?

blessings and Peace
Antonio

Greetings your excellency Sojeru...no I am not Orthodox because I am not Jewish. I am a zealous Yar Sh'mayim. I am just on the wings here to be at your service. I simply study and accept the Brit Hadasha through the lens of Jewish thought and scholarship. But I have the worldview of an Orthodox Jew. Ultimately, I'm a third generation student of Dr. David Flusser, Orthodox professor of Early Judaism and Christianity at Hebrew University. That's the closest I come in following a "Rabbi", though I consider all those on this forum and all my gentile teachers my true teachers in that sense of the word.

Shalom u'brakhot,

Eric

 

[sojeru]

Intresting,

Shalom Your Excellency Adon Eric,
May this find you and your loved ones in good health, Shalom, and prospering most copiously; all thanks be unto HaShem, most blessed is He.

well, by me, you are a Ger Toshav
A convert of the gate
For you recieve the authorities of the Rabbis
and you recieve the authority of Mashiach Yeshuah as the saviour of the gentiles.

You are one of great faith, may you be an example for the rest of the goyim here.
have you read the shulchan aruch?

blessings
Antonio