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Wasn't it Peter who told Jesus "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." which proves that Peter did not agree with JesusIt was Peter who addressed calling your husband Lord, not Paul.
I Peter 3:5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
you missed all the discussion and took only one point? True, there is nothing to talk aboutSo you only hold two verses in the whole Bible to be inspired?
OK. Not much to talk about then.
you missed all the discussion and took only one point? True, there is nothing to talk about
A) That's quite the new religion you've created for yourself.For long time I was questioning the Christianity of Paul as I see it very different from the Christianity of Jesus.
Before writing this blog. I sought the help of many priests and pastors and I was more shocked of what I was told
One told me, without Paul, we would not be saved. One told me, without Paul there would be no Christianity. One told me, we read the bible as a package, which means that Jesus’s bible has no value without Paul’s bible or Jesus bible is not complete with Paul’s letters. One told me that one day we might understand why Paul said something different from Jesus. One told me that one day we might understand why the blood of Jesus is not enough for the women’s salvation.
Why should we follow Paul’s letters, which are random texts and directed to specific groups at specific time? Why are we so desperate to follow humans instead of following God?
Do we never question Paul’s writings and blindly follow?
Christianity was the religion of Jesus. Early Christianity (before Paul changed it) was based around the teachings of Jesus regarding love, forgiveness, morality, values , how to be of a good nature and how we should love each other as Jesus loved us. Christianity of Jesus was about values while the Christianity of Paul is about doctrine.
Jesus built people while Paul built churches.
You can really see the differences in the two teachings when you read Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels then contrast them with Paul who never even quoted Jesus once.
For all Christians, study the Bible with your heart and mind and do not just blindly follow.
No one wants to stand ashamed before God in the resurrection because of following church fathers blindly who most of them were no even able to read.
Paul and women
As a woman, I believe that the demeaning language of Paul about women is not from the Holey spirit. The woman since she is born until the end of her life, she carries so many crosses without the extra crosses Paul wanted to add.
Marriage as per Paul’s instructions is a prescription for failure, the marriage will not be blessed and be successful simply because the wife is submitting and the husband is leading, regardless of who is better suited for what. The marriage as per Jesus is built on love and unity, marriage is blessed when husband and wife love each other (not one love and one submit), respecting each other, sacrificing for each other, praying together, discussing and deciding everything together.
- God is love. God who loves me will never degrade me.
- God who asked me to call him my father will never ask me to call my husband my master.
- Jesus, who never silenced a woman, will never silence me.
- Jesus, who never asked me to submit to him, will never ask me to submit to a man.
- Jesus, who did not condemn the adulterer for her own sin, will not ask Paul to condemn and punish me for Eve’s sin.
- Jesus, who do not allow authority among us, will not allow my husband to use authority over me.
- Jesus, who encouraged Mary to learn directly from him, will not ask me to learn only through a human (my husband).
- Jesus who answered all the Samaritan woman questions will not ask me not to ask questions in the church allowing me only to ask my husband who might pass wrong teachings to me.
- Jesus never used the word “submit” as Christianity is about love not submission; Jesus said, “love each other as I loved you” not “submit to each other or for a gender to submit to the other gender because Christianly is not about the flesh.
- Jesus who said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Jesus repeated the one flesh twice. Which means you cannot separate the one flesh into male and female )
- Jesus who said, “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Will not let Paul and churches separate them into master and slave (even if the master loves the slave)
- Jesus who said, “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?” will not assign the husband to be the spiritual leader of his wife. The husband is not Jesus he is a human with limitations and sins and if he will spiritually lead his wife, who might be far more spiritual than him, they will both fall into a pit.
- Jesus, who is a fair God will not punish the woman for Eve’s sin and forgive the man for Adam’s sin.
- Jesus appeared to a woman (Mary Magdalene) first and asked her to deliver the good news to his “men” disciples and to instruct them to go to Galilee to see him (apostle to the apostles).
Paul denied that Jesus appeared first to Mary, Paul never even mentioned Mary when he confidently listed the order of the lord’s appearing after resurrection.
If the son of God did not appoint himself judge and executor between tow brothers, will he appoint Paul or church leaders to be the judge and the executor between and husband and wife whom God counts as one?
- Jesus refused to interfere between 2 brothers Luke 12:14
- It is not the feminism movement that bothers church leaders and men; it is the loss of power, authority and headship that bothers them.
- Where did Jesus ask the disciples (or Paul) to punish the women for Eve’s sin? Where did Jesus assign the disciples (or Paul) to separate the husband and wife by setting up set of roles for each? Where did Jesus ask the disciples to assign each man a slave (wife)?
- God ordered Abram to do as his wife said. Why I never hear this in a wedding ceremony or a sermon. Church leaders took the part where Sarah called her husband my master and ignored God’s instruction to Abram to do what his wife said.
- Paul and churches assigned the married woman a nun role but with more crosses to carry, they think that submitting to the man is the crown for the woman(of course crown of thrones)
“No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak, for the patch pulls away from the cloak, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; otherwise, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved” (Matthew 9:16–17, NRSV).
- The message for women is that if they do not submit they are not obeying God and for sure, they will go to hell. Please read Jesus words about salvation, did it include anything that says that women will not be saved if they do not submit to their husbands?
- In the miracle of the 5 loaves and 2 fish, did Jesus say to feed the men first because they were created first? Did he order the women to clean and collect the left over because this is the role of women?
- One of the roles set up by churches is that the man provide for the woman (so that he will have authority over her, leaving her cornered in a very weak spot). Jesus allowed women to provide for him and follow him like the disciples
- For priests and pastors who try to make Paul’s instructions to women sound Christian, it is like adding spice to rotten food.
For all pastors, priests, bishops, servants or anyone who preach Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church. If these rules are not from God for each woman and man for our time and until end of days, you are committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
In addition, if Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church, which is applied by all churches, have caused a woman or a girl to stumble in their faith or a man to stumble with pride then this verse is for you.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones — those who believe in me — to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.”
*sigh* You entirely miss the point. God created man and woman to be different. They are complementary, not in competition. There is submission and authority even in heaven. God has exalted the Son. Why? Because Lord Jesus obeyed His heavenly Father completely. The Word of God can be a stumbling block. The Lord is known as the Rock of stumbling and the stone of offence. You cannot pick and choose to interpret God's word according to what you would like to be. One of my favourite teachers is Joyce Meyer. She is internationally renowned. She teaches and practices submission to her husband. That is part of the reason that God blesses her ministry.
The 4 gospels. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, he assigned the disciples to spread the word and not to create a new doctrine. I believe that Paul and Peter are saints that died for the name of Jesus, but not to call what they said as "Christ" said. the holey spirit can give different messages to people depend in the environment and the situation they are in, only Jesus words are eternal and not limited by time or environment.I asked a question that determines the whole basis for the rest of the discussion, and you answered it.
If we are going to discuss the Scriptures, but you do not consider Paul, or now apparently Peter, as reliable, I would like to know what else you consider unreliable so I can speak with you regarding that, or at least within that framework.
We can try again. Which books of the Bible do you consider inspired?
The 4 gospels. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, he assigned the disciples to spread the word and not to create a new doctrine. I believe that Paul and Peter are saints that died for the name of Jesus, but not to call what they said as "Christ" said. the holey spirit can give different messages to people depend in the environment and the situation they are in, only Jesus words are eternal and not limited by time or environment.
Thanks for your reply. I am not angry, I really think that Paul changed the Christianity. I believe Paul is a saint; but not each thing that he said is from the Holey Spirit and should be applied till the end of the world. what he wrote in his letters could be from the holey spirit for a specific culture, time or environment. Paul did not mean for his letters to become a bible. wouldn't it be enough to follow what Jesus taught us in the 4 gospels?A) That's quite the new religion you've created for yourself.
B) this whole thing may be considered against the forum guidelines... I'm not entirely sure.
C) you seem to be operating from a common but incorrect understanding of submission. Submission places greater responsibility on the one being submitted to than the one submitting. And it is only required when the example being set lines up with Jesus example. Meaning submission is more about husband's than it is wives... And many fail.
D) I understand your frustration with how it appears women are being treated, but your going about the solution all wrong. I recently preached about women ministers and in ministry (endorsing it) and tackled the misconceptions around 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2 head on, without throwing them or any other scriptures out in the process. If you are interested I can PM you the details, but I'm not going to post them here.
Well, you are wrong. It would take a great deal of discussion as to why the whole Bible is the Word of God and I don't have that much time. If you care to start a conversation with me, I will be happy to explain why. I am the teacher at our Bible School. I've been studying God's word for 48 years. That certainly does not mean I know everything or that I am infallible. I do have a reasonable basis for my assertions.The 4 gospels. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, he assigned the disciples to spread the word and not to create a new doctrine. I believe that Paul and Peter are saints that died for the name of Jesus, but not to call what they said as "Christ" said. the holey spirit can give different messages to people depend in the environment and the situation they are in, only Jesus words are eternal and not limited by time or environment.
I am sorry, but reject Paul, reject Christ.For long time I was questioning the Christianity of Paul as I see it very different from the Christianity of Jesus.
Before writing this blog. I sought the help of many priests and pastors and I was more shocked of what I was told
One told me, without Paul, we would not be saved. One told me, without Paul there would be no Christianity. One told me, we read the bible as a package, which means that Jesus’s bible has no value without Paul’s bible or Jesus bible is not complete with Paul’s letters. One told me that one day we might understand why Paul said something different from Jesus. One told me that one day we might understand why the blood of Jesus is not enough for the women’s salvation.
Why should we follow Paul’s letters, which are random texts and directed to specific groups at specific time? Why are we so desperate to follow humans instead of following God?
Do we never question Paul’s writings and blindly follow?
Christianity was the religion of Jesus. Early Christianity (before Paul changed it) was based around the teachings of Jesus regarding love, forgiveness, morality, values , how to be of a good nature and how we should love each other as Jesus loved us. Christianity of Jesus was about values while the Christianity of Paul is about doctrine.
Jesus built people while Paul built churches.
You can really see the differences in the two teachings when you read Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels then contrast them with Paul who never even quoted Jesus once.
For all Christians, study the Bible with your heart and mind and do not just blindly follow.
No one wants to stand ashamed before God in the resurrection because of following church fathers blindly who most of them were no even able to read.
Paul and women
As a woman, I believe that the demeaning language of Paul about women is not from the Holey spirit. The woman since she is born until the end of her life, she carries so many crosses without the extra crosses Paul wanted to add.
Marriage as per Paul’s instructions is a prescription for failure, the marriage will not be blessed and be successful simply because the wife is submitting and the husband is leading, regardless of who is better suited for what. The marriage as per Jesus is built on love and unity, marriage is blessed when husband and wife love each other (not one love and one submit), respecting each other, sacrificing for each other, praying together, discussing and deciding everything together.
- God is love. God who loves me will never degrade me.
- God who asked me to call him my father will never ask me to call my husband my master.
- Jesus, who never silenced a woman, will never silence me.
- Jesus, who never asked me to submit to him, will never ask me to submit to a man.
- Jesus, who did not condemn the adulterer for her own sin, will not ask Paul to condemn and punish me for Eve’s sin.
- Jesus, who do not allow authority among us, will not allow my husband to use authority over me.
- Jesus, who encouraged Mary to learn directly from him, will not ask me to learn only through a human (my husband).
- Jesus who answered all the Samaritan woman questions will not ask me not to ask questions in the church allowing me only to ask my husband who might pass wrong teachings to me.
- Jesus never used the word “submit” as Christianity is about love not submission; Jesus said, “love each other as I loved you” not “submit to each other or for a gender to submit to the other gender because Christianly is not about the flesh.
- Jesus who said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Jesus repeated the one flesh twice. Which means you cannot separate the one flesh into male and female )
- Jesus who said, “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Will not let Paul and churches separate them into master and slave (even if the master loves the slave)
- Jesus who said, “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?” will not assign the husband to be the spiritual leader of his wife. The husband is not Jesus he is a human with limitations and sins and if he will spiritually lead his wife, who might be far more spiritual than him, they will both fall into a pit.
- Jesus, who is a fair God will not punish the woman for Eve’s sin and forgive the man for Adam’s sin.
- Jesus appeared to a woman (Mary Magdalene) first and asked her to deliver the good news to his “men” disciples and to instruct them to go to Galilee to see him (apostle to the apostles).
Paul denied that Jesus appeared first to Mary, Paul never even mentioned Mary when he confidently listed the order of the lord’s appearing after resurrection.
If the son of God did not appoint himself judge and executor between tow brothers, will he appoint Paul or church leaders to be the judge and the executor between and husband and wife whom God counts as one?
- Jesus refused to interfere between 2 brothers Luke 12:14
- It is not the feminism movement that bothers church leaders and men; it is the loss of power, authority and headship that bothers them.
- Where did Jesus ask the disciples (or Paul) to punish the women for Eve’s sin? Where did Jesus assign the disciples (or Paul) to separate the husband and wife by setting up set of roles for each? Where did Jesus ask the disciples to assign each man a slave (wife)?
- God ordered Abram to do as his wife said. Why I never hear this in a wedding ceremony or a sermon. Church leaders took the part where Sarah called her husband my master and ignored God’s instruction to Abram to do what his wife said.
- Paul and churches assigned the married woman a nun role but with more crosses to carry, they think that submitting to the man is the crown for the woman(of course crown of thrones)
“No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak, for the patch pulls away from the cloak, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; otherwise, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved” (Matthew 9:16–17, NRSV).
- The message for women is that if they do not submit they are not obeying God and for sure, they will go to hell. Please read Jesus words about salvation, did it include anything that says that women will not be saved if they do not submit to their husbands?
- In the miracle of the 5 loaves and 2 fish, did Jesus say to feed the men first because they were created first? Did he order the women to clean and collect the left over because this is the role of women?
- One of the roles set up by churches is that the man provide for the woman (so that he will have authority over her, leaving her cornered in a very weak spot). Jesus allowed women to provide for him and follow him like the disciples
- For priests and pastors who try to make Paul’s instructions to women sound Christian, it is like adding spice to rotten food.
For all pastors, priests, bishops, servants or anyone who preach Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church. If these rules are not from God for each woman and man for our time and until end of days, you are committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
In addition, if Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church, which is applied by all churches, have caused a woman or a girl to stumble in their faith or a man to stumble with pride then this verse is for you.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones — those who believe in me — to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.”
Do you mean believing in Jesus is not enough?I am sorry, but reject Paul, reject Christ.
Do you mean believing in Jesus is not enough?
Paul and Peter are saints who died in the name of Jesus, what they said is for their time. Not everything they said is from the Holey Spirit, and if it was from the Holey Spirit, it was for a specific people at a specific time. Only Jesus words are for all people and till the end of days.I asked a question that determines the whole basis for the rest of the discussion, and you answered it.
If we are going to discuss the Scriptures, but you do not consider Paul, or now apparently Peter, as reliable, I would like to know what else you consider unreliable so I can speak with you regarding that, or at least within that framework.
We can try again. Which books of the Bible do you consider inspired?
I believe he was a saint, but I think what the Holey Spirit says depend on the situation and time. only what Jesus said is for all people and all times. I don't think even Paul planned or knew that his letters will become a bible and that he will be equal to Jesus who died for usNot if He has also asked us to also believe in those He sent. Which He has.
Matthew 10
Paul and Peter are saints who died in the name of Jesus, what they said is for their time. Not everything they said is from the Holey Spirit, and if it was from the Holey Spirit, it was for a specific people at a specific time. Only Jesus words are for all people and till the end of days.
If everyone concentrate on Jesus's teachings which are very spiritual, they will lead more people to know and love him
But Scripture disagrees.I believe he was a saint, but I think what the Holey Spirit says depend on the situation and time. only what Jesus said is for all people and all times. I don't think even Paul planned or knew that his letters will become a bible and that he will be equal to Jesus who died for us
Thank you very much. Really appreciate itGod is the same yesterday, today and forever. If it involves something of principle, it doesn't change. How we are to treat others, what is right and wrong, what is expected of us and what we can expect from God. That doesn't change, and that is primarily what the Bible is for. What kind of God would he be if He changed the rules based on culture?
When it is specific for an individual its obvious. God told Noah to build an ark, that doesn't mean we all have to. But the leasons from that story are for all of us. Paul's writings are just as relevant today as they were when he wrote them. Many have just gotten the stuff on women upside down... Which is itself a symptom of the fall that God predicted would happen... But the truth is still in there... I'll send you my notes later, but I can't at the moment, my power is out and I can't do it from my phone.
For long time I was questioning the Christianity of Paul as I see it very different from the Christianity of Jesus.
Before writing this blog. I sought the help of many priests and pastors and I was more shocked of what I was told
One told me, without Paul, we would not be saved. One told me, without Paul there would be no Christianity. One told me, we read the bible as a package, which means that Jesus’s bible has no value without Paul’s bible or Jesus bible is not complete with Paul’s letters. One told me that one day we might understand why Paul said something different from Jesus. One told me that one day we might understand why the blood of Jesus is not enough for the women’s salvation.
Why should we follow Paul’s letters, which are random texts and directed to specific groups at specific time? Why are we so desperate to follow humans instead of following God?
Do we never question Paul’s writings and blindly follow?
Christianity was the religion of Jesus. Early Christianity (before Paul changed it) was based around the teachings of Jesus regarding love, forgiveness, morality, values , how to be of a good nature and how we should love each other as Jesus loved us. Christianity of Jesus was about values while the Christianity of Paul is about doctrine.
Jesus built people while Paul built churches.
You can really see the differences in the two teachings when you read Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels then contrast them with Paul who never even quoted Jesus once.
For all Christians, study the Bible with your heart and mind and do not just blindly follow.
No one wants to stand ashamed before God in the resurrection because of following church fathers blindly who most of them were no even able to read.
Paul and women
As a woman, I believe that the demeaning language of Paul about women is not from the Holey spirit. The woman since she is born until the end of her life, she carries so many crosses without the extra crosses Paul wanted to add.
Marriage as per Paul’s instructions is a prescription for failure, the marriage will not be blessed and be successful simply because the wife is submitting and the husband is leading, regardless of who is better suited for what. The marriage as per Jesus is built on love and unity, marriage is blessed when husband and wife love each other (not one love and one submit), respecting each other, sacrificing for each other, praying together, discussing and deciding everything together.
- God is love. God who loves me will never degrade me.
- God who asked me to call him my father will never ask me to call my husband my master.
- Jesus, who never silenced a woman, will never silence me.
- Jesus, who never asked me to submit to him, will never ask me to submit to a man.
- Jesus, who did not condemn the adulterer for her own sin, will not ask Paul to condemn and punish me for Eve’s sin.
- Jesus, who do not allow authority among us, will not allow my husband to use authority over me.
- Jesus, who encouraged Mary to learn directly from him, will not ask me to learn only through a human (my husband).
- Jesus who answered all the Samaritan woman questions will not ask me not to ask questions in the church allowing me only to ask my husband who might pass wrong teachings to me.
- Jesus never used the word “submit” as Christianity is about love not submission; Jesus said, “love each other as I loved you” not “submit to each other or for a gender to submit to the other gender because Christianly is not about the flesh.
- Jesus who said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Jesus repeated the one flesh twice. Which means you cannot separate the one flesh into male and female )
- Jesus who said, “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Will not let Paul and churches separate them into master and slave (even if the master loves the slave)
- Jesus who said, “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?” will not assign the husband to be the spiritual leader of his wife. The husband is not Jesus he is a human with limitations and sins and if he will spiritually lead his wife, who might be far more spiritual than him, they will both fall into a pit.
- Jesus, who is a fair God will not punish the woman for Eve’s sin and forgive the man for Adam’s sin.
- Jesus appeared to a woman (Mary Magdalene) first and asked her to deliver the good news to his “men” disciples and to instruct them to go to Galilee to see him (apostle to the apostles).
Paul denied that Jesus appeared first to Mary, Paul never even mentioned Mary when he confidently listed the order of the lord’s appearing after resurrection.
If the son of God did not appoint himself judge and executor between tow brothers, will he appoint Paul or church leaders to be the judge and the executor between and husband and wife whom God counts as one?
- Jesus refused to interfere between 2 brothers Luke 12:14
- It is not the feminism movement that bothers church leaders and men; it is the loss of power, authority and headship that bothers them.
- Where did Jesus ask the disciples (or Paul) to punish the women for Eve’s sin? Where did Jesus assign the disciples (or Paul) to separate the husband and wife by setting up set of roles for each? Where did Jesus ask the disciples to assign each man a slave (wife)?
- God ordered Abram to do as his wife said. Why I never hear this in a wedding ceremony or a sermon. Church leaders took the part where Sarah called her husband my master and ignored God’s instruction to Abram to do what his wife said.
- Paul and churches assigned the married woman a nun role but with more crosses to carry, they think that submitting to the man is the crown for the woman(of course crown of thrones)
“No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak, for the patch pulls away from the cloak, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; otherwise, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved” (Matthew 9:16–17, NRSV).
- The message for women is that if they do not submit they are not obeying God and for sure, they will go to hell. Please read Jesus words about salvation, did it include anything that says that women will not be saved if they do not submit to their husbands?
- In the miracle of the 5 loaves and 2 fish, did Jesus say to feed the men first because they were created first? Did he order the women to clean and collect the left over because this is the role of women?
- One of the roles set up by churches is that the man provide for the woman (so that he will have authority over her, leaving her cornered in a very weak spot). Jesus allowed women to provide for him and follow him like the disciples
- For priests and pastors who try to make Paul’s instructions to women sound Christian, it is like adding spice to rotten food.
For all pastors, priests, bishops, servants or anyone who preach Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church. If these rules are not from God for each woman and man for our time and until end of days, you are committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
In addition, if Paul’s rules for the roles of women and men in marriage and in the church, which is applied by all churches, have caused a woman or a girl to stumble in their faith or a man to stumble with pride then this verse is for you.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones — those who believe in me — to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.”
Agreed.Paul was chosen by the Lord to be His instrument. Who are we to question God and who He chooses to work through?
Please understand what our Lord was teaching in the Gospels:Thanks for your reply. I am not angry, I really think that Paul changed the Christianity. I believe Paul is a saint; but not each thing that he said is from the Holey Spirit and should be applied till the end of the world. what he wrote in his letters could be from the holey spirit for a specific culture, time or environment. Paul did not mean for his letters to become a bible. wouldn't it be enough to follow what Jesus taught us in the 4 gospels?
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