YECism true feelings

[rmwilliamsll]

posted to the wrong forum.
deserves to be addressed.


The reason I even talked was because I don't want people to believe in a lie. You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in Jesus Christ and believe in evolution.


What this does is raises the belief in a young creationist system above the death and resurrection of Christ to be the most important issue to be a Christian.

1Co 6:9,10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-- such a man is an idolater-- has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You'd think that such an important idea that the mere holding of it would make anyone a not-Christian and therefore unsaved and destined for hell would at least get a passing mention in passages such as these.


Futhermore note that these disqualifying things are unrighteous and immoral actions. Yet you claim that the mere assent to the evidence for a scientific theory that has no moral component, that doesn't say a word about ethics is this great disqualifier for heaven.

It seems very odd to me that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to cover all the sins of the world, except one-belief in evolutionary theory. You can be a murderer and accept Christ and be saved but you can't see the evidence for common descent and do the same, this belief is so horrible that it outweighes very other activity that people can do and make that person a not-Christian.

odd idea indeed.


Every single one of those here and around the world, which is the great majority of people claiming to be Christians that accept the TofE as a scientific theory are not really Christians are deceiving themselves believing a lie. Only YECists can be Christians.

please make a note of this posting for next time a YECist claims that YECism doesn't call all other Christians unsaved because they "believe" in evolution. For note again, that this poster is on his way out, he is leaving the conversation so now he will say what he really believes, that he has kept hidden all the rest of the time and it now offering as a parting shot---

all but YECists are not Christians.......

you can not really be a Christian and accept the TofE.

Peace and love man

seems a contradictory way to end a message where you just told me my life and faith is a lie, that i am going to hell and that there is no hope for me unless i ignore the evidence of my eyes and discard a well founded scientific theory and believe that the earth is 6K years old. That the death and resurrection of Christ avails me not one little bit unless i believe that Adam lived less than 10K years ago. That the Lord's resurrection is not as important as reading _The Genesis Flood_ by Morris and Whitcomb and accepting it as the most important part of the Gospel.

Sorry to say but I need to stop talking to you.

please enjoy the rest of your life, if you want to come back and destroy the rest of my pitiful life here on earth please feel free to tell me that my kids aren't really mine, that my wife has been fooling around for these last 33 years, that my house will burn down tomorrow, and that i have cancer. Since the faith is the most important issue in my life, you could just make a clean sweep of the rest of the important things when you come back.


from:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=26121088&postcount=58

 

[rmwilliamsll]

moved another reply from the creationist forum...

He didn't get his creation right the first time

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why is there no biblical accounts of people living billions of years ago?


my car is currently broken, why didn't God tell me how to repair it in the Bible? why didn't He even mention cars there?
perhaps because it isn't a car repair manual?

Notice that he was fluent in his speaking- he did not grunt-

did he click? click languages are known to be the oldest extant languages.

Think about the message you are sending to others- when you promote this heresy as fact. People are in hell because of placing their faith in science rather than God. Think about it.

But you have already said that the Bible doesn't talk about billions of years, how can belief in them condemn people to hell? you would have thought that something that important would have been discussed in the SCriptures. If evolution is so important that the mere understanding of it as science would override all other beliefs including faith in God, that it would at least get a mention.

It appears to me that the only heresy that God can not forgive is the heresy of not-being-YEC, that the only sin that God will not forgive is understanding an old earth, that the only wrong way to read the Bible is one that leads to OEC or worse. Everything else can be covered and paid for by the blood of Christ except these things.

Looks to me that this is saying that only YECists are true Christians and really really truely saved.

btw.
only a metaphysical naturalist or materialist puts his faith in science, most scientists are methodological materialists and have another metaphysics that they believe in that is not supposedly derived from science. Most scientists are probably like Einstein some form of a mild deist or panentheist.




wait a minute. it was in the origins forum.
o'well collect YECism is the only true Christianity notes here.

 

[chaoschristian]

While I've seen other YECs behave like this, I have to wonder if this behaviour is an expression of YEC, or if it is an expression of a form of tribal Christianity.

I think we can all think of example of the same behaviour focused on different issues (not going to mention them because I don't want the thread burning down in a flame fest of hot button issues).

The pattern is 'I define Christianity as X; you do not accept X; therefore I define you as not Christian.'

Where X is any issue that falls outside of faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour based on grace through God.

I think that there are YECs here who would be willing to affirm that while they disagree with the TEs notions on origins, that they are also willing to not question our salvation and faith.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i guess i just got a little bit bent, that is 5 different people in 4 days that TE's have been directly called heretics or not-Christians. I don't expect, as you say in hot button issues, to have a lot of charity expressed, but since AFAIK no denomination has made YECism a church membership requirement, you'd expect people to be more careful with labels like heretic and "going to hell".

 

[chaoschristian]

i guess i just got a little bit bent, that is 5 different people in 4 days that TE's have been directly called heretics or not-Christians. I don't expect, as you say in hot button issues, to have a lot of charity expressed, but since AFAIK no denomination has made YECism a church membership requirement, you'd expect people to be more careful with labels like heretic and "going to hell".

I'm not aware of any denominational requirements, but I am aware of specific local church requirements. I'm also aware of requirements of meta institutions such a Patrick Henry College, which I fully expect will have an impact on demoniations further down the line.

 

[DougOurs]

moved another reply from the creationist forum...


He didn't get his creation right the first time

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why is there no biblical accounts of people living billions of years ago?


my car is currently broken, why didn't God tell me how to repair it in the Bible? why didn't He even mention cars there?
perhaps because it isn't a car repair manual?

Notice that he was fluent in his speaking- he did not grunt-

did he click? click languages are known to be the oldest extant languages.

Think about the message you are sending to others- when you promote this heresy as fact. People are in hell because of placing their faith in science rather than God. Think about it.

But you have already said that the Bible doesn't talk about billions of years, how can belief in them condemn people to hell? you would have thought that something that important would have been discussed in the SCriptures. If evolution is so important that the mere understanding of it as science would override all other beliefs including faith in God, that it would at least get a mention.

It appears to me that the only heresy that God can not forgive is the heresy of not-being-YEC, that the only sin that God will not forgive is understanding an old earth, that the only wrong way to read the Bible is one that leads to OEC or worse. Everything else can be covered and paid for by the blood of Christ except these things.

Looks to me that this is saying that only YECists are true Christians and really really truely saved.

btw.
only a metaphysical naturalist or materialist puts his faith in science, most scientists are methodological materialists and have another metaphysics that they believe in that is not supposedly derived from science. Most scientists are probably like Einstein some form of a mild deist or panentheist.




wait a minute. it was in the origins forum.
o'well collect YECism is the only true Christianity notes here.

No one has said that only YEC's are saved. Jesus is the thing that makes a person saved. However- it is just curious as to why only they seem to trust the whole bible and not pick and choose what suits them and reject what does not.

 

[DougOurs]

While I've seen other YECs behave like this, I have to wonder if this behaviour is an expression of YEC, or if it is an expression of a form of tribal Christianity.

I think we can all think of example of the same behaviour focused on different issues (not going to mention them because I don't want the thread burning down in a flame fest of hot button issues).

The pattern is 'I define Christianity as X; you do not accept X; therefore I define you as not Christian.'

Where X is any issue that falls outside of faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour based on grace through God.

I think that there are YECs here who would be willing to affirm that while they disagree with the TEs notions on origins, that they are also willing to not question our salvation and faith.

It is not the job of anyone to question your salvation. God is the judge of your heart.

 

[chaoschristian]

It is not the job of anyone to question your salvation. God is the judge of your heart.

While I agree, I have also witnessed and have been the recipient of such judgement a number of times here on CF (and no, not always in the context of OT or from YECs).

 

[rmwilliamsll]

No one has said that only YEC's are saved. Jesus is the thing that makes a person saved. However- it is just curious as to why only they seem to trust the whole bible and not pick and choose what suits them and reject what does not.

thank you and rep points.
a better and more charitable response then "you are a heretic" and "going to hell" category.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm not aware of any denominational requirements, but I am aware of specific local church requirements. I'm also aware of requirements of meta institutions such a Patrick Henry College, which I fully expect will have an impact on demoniations further down the line.

i can see the movement as well. that is one reason to invest the time here. there is one presbytery and one seminary that require YECist conformance for their members, but nothing has been raised at General Assembly trying to make the issue denomination wide (PCA, but effects OPC) with perhaps 1/2 of teaching elders some form of OEC i don't think the issue will come up at GA anytime soon either. it will be fought in Westminster Prebytery and Greenville Seminary.

 

[gluadys]

No one has said that only YEC's are saved. Jesus is the thing that makes a person saved. However- it is just curious as to why only they seem to trust the whole bible and not pick and choose what suits them and reject what does not.

You have been misinformed. YECists are not the only Christians who trust the whole bible. Most TEs do.


I have never found a reason to pick and choose parts of the bible to believe and parts to reject. I believe it all and I have no difficulty accepting current scientific theory as well.

 

[SweetDaisyMae]

What is a TE?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

What is a TE?

theistic evolutionist

PC progressive creationist
EC evolutionary creationist
PE providential evolutionist

YEC young earth creationist
GC geocentric
FE flatearther

OEC old earth creationist


for creation-evolution-design debate spectrum of positions see:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html
http://www.antievolution.org/people/wre/essays/ea.html
http://www.calvin.edu/~lhaarsma/week6.html
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/faqiposs.html
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/1593_the_creationevolution_continu_12_7_2000.asp
http://blueletterbible.org/faq/creation.html

 

[laptoppop]

I think that there are YECs here who would be willing to affirm that while they disagree with the TEs notions on origins, that they are also willing to not question our salvation and faith.

Yup! Actually, if I were to insist that only folks that agree with me get to go to heaven, I'd have a pretty darn lonely time through eternity... including no Jesus! Its hard, but it is a measure of maturity to be able to seperate talking about particular issues compared to broad stroke criticism of groups. It is also important for us to recognize topics which are non-negotiable (Jesus is Lord!) from ones where reasonable, intelligent, educated, and yes - even godly people can have different opinions.

I consider it wrong and immature when YECs question the salvation of TEs.

I also consider it wrong and immature when TEs question the intelligence of YECs. There has been a recent thread about how my faith supposedly comes from a "tragically weak view of God". I'm not sure why - but the very term "YECist" which appears to be coined by this thread bugs me. In the same thread, the "leaders" of YEC were called liars (implying deliberate deceit, not just wrong opinions). In other threads I've been told I'd see the light if I only took the time to read a good commentary on Genesis (I've read several great ones, from both liberal and conservative scholars. To me the conservative arguments are more persuasive and coherent than the ones supporting "higher criticism" for example.) I've had folks refuse to even check out links I've sent, refuse to consider alternative positions resolving supposed Biblical inaccuracies such as the circumference issue from I Kings and the easy resolution of the 24000 (total) versus 23000 (one day), etc.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I agree that many YECs go too far in their rhetoric. I also feel that there are many examples of similar mirror behaviour from TEs.

In many cases, there is an element of truth in each of the insults -- but I want to encourage all of us to seek for ways to express the truth in love and respect.

I'm trying to set an example of respectful interaction with a reasonably open mind. Sure, I've got pretty darn strong opinions, but I want to hold them with a measure of humility and openness. I hope to grow and learn from both other YECs and TEs -- both about scripture and about issues for which there should be an answer. Sometimes, however, the insults just get tiring and I split for a while -- better than respondiing in anger.

Neither "group" has clean hands in this mess -- but I *can* control how *I* post. Please, if you feel that I ever step over the "line" -- let me know. I encourage all of us, both YEC and TE, to seek to talk with each other rather than at each other.

May iron sharpen iron in our conversations, and may we be examples of lovingly disagreeing and helping each other.

 

[jereth]

I'm trying to set an example of respectful interaction with a reasonably open mind. Sure, I've got pretty darn strong opinions, but I want to hold them with a measure of humility and openness. I hope to grow and learn from both other YECs and TEs -- both about scripture and about issues for which there should be an answer. Sometimes, however, the insults just get tiring and I split for a while -- better than respondiing in anger.

Neither "group" has clean hands in this mess -- but I *can* control how *I* post. Please, if you feel that I ever step over the "line" -- let me know. I encourage all of us, both YEC and TE, to seek to talk with each other rather than at each other.

May iron sharpen iron in our conversations, and may we be examples of lovingly disagreeing and helping each other.

Thanks for encouraging us all to have a better attitude, laptoppop. I think most of us here try to be gracious to the other side, but at times it gets heated and self control can easily be abandoned when that happens. I know I've been guilty of this at times.

Most YECists don't question the salvation of TEists, that's true. However, it is alarming to read material from organisations like AiG which promote the idea that TEists (and OECists) are guilty of serious compromise to the Christian faith, and it is not surprising when such sour sentiments are taken just that little bit further. I think this is what rmwilliams is responding to in the OP.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

There was a campaign put on by AiG about 2 years ago where they asked everyone to confront their pastors if they were old earth creationist and to tell them that they were compromisers with the true Gospel.

i looked for my notes but can't find the name of the campaign but they referred to pastors who thought that the earth was more than 6Ky old as "useful idiots" in the hands of atheistic materialists and that everyone reading AiG should speak up and tell their pastors this.

I saw it simply as the theological equivalent of subversiveness and treason.

 

[LightHorseman]

YECists seem to get very heated when I just ask questions. I'm a Christian, and would like to take the Bible as literal fact. However, I'm also a scientist, so when I ask YEC people to explain certain differences between observable reality and the Bible, they seem to think that even ASKING the question is tantamount to blashpemy.

So if there are any YECers out there who would like to calmly and rationally explain things to me like what T-Rex ate before the fall, and where new organisms like HIV, MRSA and VRE come from, I would be sincerely grateful.

 

[jereth]

There was a campaign put on by AiG about 2 years ago where they asked everyone to confront their pastors if they were old earth creationist and to tell them that they were compromisers with the true Gospel.

i looked for my notes but can't find the name of the campaign but they referred to pastors who thought that the earth was more than 6Ky old as "useful idiots" in the hands of atheistic materialists and that everyone reading AiG should speak up and tell their pastors this.

I saw it simply as the theological equivalent of subversiveness and treason.

More from AiG:

This [evolution] leads to a shallow faith that has little root in the Word of God

It's always nice to be told that my faith is shallow.

Today Genesis is under attack as never before—not only by sceptics who ridicule it, but also by ‘Christian’ teachers who, in their books and sermons, blatantly misrepresent what the text says, to try and make it conform to the conclusions of some of modern science, with its antitheistic presuppositions.

Ah, so Christian evolutionists aren't Christian, they're just 'Christian'.

Do you have to believe in a literal Creation to be a Christian? The short answer is ‘No’. The long answer is ‘No, but …’.

And just how are we meant to take this?

The theistic evolutionist maligns God’s character and detracts from His glory.

Yup, there's nothing I enjoy more than maligning God's character.

Theistic evolution is a serious departure from the historic Christian faith; it represents a grave threat to the spiritual well-being of God’s people and the effectiveness of their mission in the world.

Theistic evolution also subtly undermines the dignity and sanctity of human life

Theistic evolution, which at first glance seems a reasonable compromise with ‘science’, undermines the entire biblical worldview.

Evolutionism is the foundation from which the modern world system launches nearly every ideological attack against the faith of Christ. Here, then, where the battle is raging in our time, is where we are called to stand and fight.

Theistic evolutionists have a problem too. If God used the evolutionary method, then He is the author of pain and suffering and evil. God becomes a devil.

Bear in mind now that AiG represents the "moderates" as far as YECists go. There are even more unrestrained people such a Kent Hovind around.

If YECists are being fed a steady diet of anti-TE poison such as the small sample above, is it any wonder that every now and then we come across a statement like:
You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in Jesus Christ and believe in evolution.

Let's not be suckered into thinking that it is just a radical, fundamentalist, marginal group of YECists who hate TEist's guts and think we are minions of the devil. The mainline YEC organisations deplore us just as much. They are on a mission to destroy us, this is explicit in their published material. The only difference is that they know how to speak in a slightly more politically correct way.

 

[Smidlee]

posted to the wrong forum.
deserves to be addressed.

I notice how this thread quickly turn out to be "theoddamerican vs you, Brennan, and Mallon." I guess TE just can't help themselves from accidently falling into the wrong forum.

 

[Mallon]

I notice how this thread quickly turn out to be "theoddamerican vs you, Brennan, and Mallon."

Hardly a debate. A certain someone from your list refuses to participate any further.