Ye Olde Libertarian Pub

Nilloc · Mar 7, 2012

SmellsLikeCurlyFries said:
Oh, he's going to get a vast majority of his following (if not all of it).

I know, but wonder how many people that is.

Speaking of people not voting for Ron Paul, at least the Neocons should be happy about this: Jon Stewart on the Bagel Bloc « LewRockwell.com Blog

apache1 · Mar 7, 2012

I'm Libertarian (and Libertine) in my philosphy. I'm a Christian (though not one of those holier-than-thou and oppressive funadmentalist types), I believe in total freedom (or from) religion, complete right to bear arms(gun control to me is how well you aim and shoot) (but responsbility comes with that right), freedom of speech (not slander or libel, but all other type), keep the government out of our wallets and bedroom (complete CONSENSUAL sexual freedom, whether vanilla, S & M, hetero, homo, tickle fetish, whatever), responsible Jeffersonian ideals, pursuit of happiness, responsible capitalism, but responsible environmental stewardship comes along with that, fight wars ONLY WHEN WE HAVE TO, if we have to crush and annilhate enemy if no other recourse, If other recourse, though, without truly compromising our security, mind our own damn business, help others TRULY in need, personal responsibility, and honor the heritage and culture of our ancestry (such as me, utmost respect of my Appalachian Mountain and Cherokee Indian heritage) and love and respect my family and elders. God Bless America (and Planet Earth in General) and praise be to Jesus Christ.

SmellsLikeCurlyFries · Mar 7, 2012

NILLOC said:
I know, but wonder how many people that is.

Speaking of people not voting for Ron Paul, at least the Neocons should be happy about this: Jon Stewart on the Bagel Bloc « LewRockwell.com Blog

Bahaha, that was hilarious, as usual XD

I love Stewart

Nilloc · Mar 8, 2012

Started listening to this lecture series in addition to Man, Economy, and State. He's talking about the same material in both, but it's good to go over it again. And I get to hear Rothbard's Jay Leno voice so that's a plus (though I do wonder if he was wearing a silly tie while delivering these).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoTbOHhKHxk&list=FLNK_51hb9krjfNx24VAZ0fw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

MacFall · Mar 8, 2012

Rothbard was NEVER without a bowtie. He did so out of rebellion against prominent members of the mainstream economics profession, who tried to be as fashionable as possible; and likely would have said that it was their "silk nooses" that were silly, rather than his own choice of neckwear.

He does have an amusing voice. Just wait until he starts talking about banking. When he says the word "bank" it sounds like a duck quacking.

Nilloc · Mar 8, 2012

MacFall said:
Rothbard was NEVER without a bowtie. He did so out of rebellion against prominent members of the mainstream economics profession, who tried to be as fashionable as possible; and likely would have said that it was their "silk nooses" that were silly, rather than his own choice of neckwear.

He does have an amusing voice. Just wait until he starts talking about banking. When he says the word "bank" it sounds like a duck quacking.

Murray Rothbard: Enemy of the State . . . and fashion . . .

I'd buy that t-shirt.

SmellsLikeCurlyFries · Mar 8, 2012

Heck yes!

To quote the Eleventh Doctor, "Bowties are cool."

MacFall · Mar 8, 2012

SmellsLikeCurlyFries said:
Heck yes!

To quote the Eleventh Doctor, "Bowties are cool."

Well, they started being cool when he said it.

Nilloc · Mar 14, 2012

Whoever thought the Austrian/Keynesian debate could be so . . . epic.
Fight of the Century: Keynes vs. Hayek Round Two - YouTube

MacFall · Mar 14, 2012

Last year I got the social studies teacher at the CTC school at which I was a substitute to show that video (and the first one) to her classes when they were surveying economics. She actually wanted me to do a presentation on the Austrian theory for the class, but the administration nixed it since even at a CTC you need a state license to teach academics. :/

Still, pretty cool that she showed the videos. She still sometimes emails me questions about economic topics.

zoink · Mar 14, 2012

Discussion of bow tie wearing libertarians and no mention of Jeffrey Tucker? For shame.

Nilloc · Mar 14, 2012

I've heard some mixed things about Hayek from some Austro-libertarians, what's that about? Of course I think they were like really hardcore Anarcho-Capitalists who think Ron Paul is no better than Hitler, so that might be the answer

MacFall said:
She actually wanted me to do a presentation on the Austrian theory for the class, but the administration nixed it since even at a CTC you need a state license to teach academics. :/

Thank God we have government licenses to protect students from learning!

Still, pretty cool that she showed the videos. She still sometimes emails me questions about economic topics.

I really enjoyed them. I've had the second one stuck in my head ever sense I heard it. And I actually learned a few things. I also liked these videos because they also taught me some stuff. Oh and because they feature a really cute nerdy libertarian girl. That's always a plus.

I'm in Love with Friedrich Hayek - YouTube
Roll With The Flow - YouTube
Supply & Demand Rap: WE GOT IT 4 CHEAP - YouTube

Nilloc · Mar 14, 2012

zoink said:
Discussion of bow tie wearing libertarians and no mention of Jeffrey Tucker? For shame.

Huh. I think I remember a section in The Ethics of Liberty that said not wearing a bow tie violates the non-aggression principle. I guess I'll never be an AnCap then.

MacFall · Mar 14, 2012

zoink said:
Discussion of bow tie wearing libertarians and no mention of Jeffrey Tucker? For shame.

Oh yeah, he has certainly carried on that tradition.

MacFall · Mar 14, 2012

I didn't know you had to be a Paul hating purist in order to be a hardcore AnCap. I'm not.

The biggest problems that Austrolibertarians have with Hayek are on his ethics and his methodology. On political ethics, he was actually a classical liberal, and a moderate one at that. He believed in regulating "risky behaviors" and in a welfare state (albeit a small one). And also, in The Constitution of Liberty he defined "coercion" so broadly that it included things like withholding rewards to create incentive, which renders it worthless as an ethical concept. So that's the ethical side of it. On economics, he didn't really accept praxeological principles. Methodology is important to Austrians. But Hayek viewed knowledge, rather than action, as the basis by which economics could be best explained. The fact is that he was really rather more of a political theorist than an economist.

Frankly, I don't think that he deserves much of the ire that plumbline Rothbardians throw at him. He was right on some very important conclusions, even if his methodology was shaky; and he's a great gate by which many conservatives and moderate liberals have been brought into the libertarian fold.

zoink · Mar 14, 2012

NILLOC said:
like really hardcore Anarcho-Capitalists who think Ron Paul is no better than Hitler

I've never encountered an ancap that thinks RP is no better then Hitler. Mainly they just don't believe in political action and think if Paul gets elected and the economy tanks that it could set libertarianism back.

Most of the ancaps I know debate if he is a closet voluntaryist that believes in political action. Take here for example. The top post got zero downvotes.

*********

MacFall said:
Frankly, I don't think that he deserves much of the ire that plumbline Rothbardians throw at him. He was right on some very important conclusions, even if his methodology was shaky; and he's a great gate by which many conservatives and moderate liberals have been brought into the libertarian fold.

Heck, if one is going to be that strict one would have to get on Mises' case.

MacFall · Mar 14, 2012

Well, some do. But considering that Mises believed in an unlimited right of secession, I find it hard to judge him too harshly. Of course, I'm a deontologist, and he was a utilitarian - that's my biggest problem with Mises. But I'm also a Christian; while Rothbard, the greatest expositor of libertarian deontological theory, was an agnostic. So if I'm going to throw out Mises because we get to the same conclusions by different means, I'd also have to throw out Rothbard. And that would make me a very lonely Rothbardian.

zoink · Mar 14, 2012

You'll always have the four other Christian Rothbardians to keep you company.

Actually I just saw an unscientific poll of ancaps, 18% Christian. Also we're poor and will have rather hard time finding an ancap girlfriend.

MacFall · Mar 14, 2012

Oh God, don't I know all about that.

I'd never had a date even when I was a neocon. And now the idea of dating (actively) statist women turns my stomach, so that hasn't made things any easier. I'm probably going to have to settle for politically apathetic.

Nilloc · Mar 14, 2012

About the AnCap thing: I consider myself something of a minarchist considering AnCap, so please don't take my statements as being anti-anarchism. I'm far from it. By hardcore AnCap, I meant those AnCaps who consider any non-anarchist libertarian to be a statist and won't ally themselves with them at all, not those that are very passionate about the beliefs, but can still work with other libertarians. I've never encountered an AnCap who though RP was no better than Hitler either. I was just using exaggeration (something I clearly failed to communicate in my post, sorry) to make a a point. I'm pretty sure Walter Block and Tom Woods are AnCap and I know they have endorsed RP. I have heard AnCaps call RP a statist though and it was that kind of thing I was referring to.

Thanks for info on MacFall. But wasn't Hayek a student of Mises (I think I read that somewhere)? So did his teacher's view on human action just never rub off on him?

Mainly they just don't believe in political action and think if Paul gets elected and the economy tanks that it could set libertarianism back.

Yeah, I've heard that. Sadly it actually makes a lot of sense and does seem like a very real possibility if RP were President. I voted for RP none-the-less; not that my vote mattered, of course.

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