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Wouldn't atheism be better, if it was multivalent?

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So this is something of a curiosity to me: atheism adopts the opinion that "there is no god" but basically stops there. Now granted people take all sorts of tangents, pastafarianism for example, and there are many gods to which they object, but fundamentally atheism is not a multivalent approach to belief at all. By multivalent, I mean that it doesn't attempt to construct a belief system that accounts for multiple points of view, people don't say "I believe in the atheist way of life" they just say "I am an atheist". I understand that the latter is simpler, but the fact that the former is not present at all is rather spurious I think.

Atheists could easily adopt the attitude that "there is no God, the Universe cannot be interacted with from the outside, the future is at no point going to revolve around God, the Name of God itself will meet the same fate of entropy as everything else". These are atheist ideas that flesh out the nature of the atheism and give structure to the expectations and understandings of atheism, such that should they get in a debate, for example, they would have such beliefs to negotiate with and through and around. Otherwise you end up just revolving around the one concept that there is no god, which is not healthy.

The fallout from this is that atheists frequently obsess over religion and religious stupidity. In debates they frequently call religious people out for their unthinkingness and their lack of critical perspective, when this is completely unwarranted and unconstructive. If atheists actually had beliefs themselves, then it would be clear when they were thinking about the future, for example and not merely dwelling on the past failings of the human race to live a religion that is pure and unspotted. This actually leads to the idea that atheists are not merely unregenerate, but are objectionable and unkind and therefore ultimately lacking in knowledge, be it of themselves.

Call me crazy, but if atheists actually believed in atheism systematically, it could actually do some benefit. Intellectual rigour doesn't have to revolve around praising a God you can't see, so that your problems are projected onto a future you can deal with; instead, you can have ideas about the future and reasoned arguments about what your attitude will be once you reach that future. To my mind, there is nothing easier than talking about the hope I have in the future, but for atheists it seems as if they are scared of the work that will mean.

To be fair, multivalency opens up the possibility of disagreement. Not everyone will want to dwell on the entropy of the Universe, but that is rather the point. Ultimately, atheists think they "agree" on there being "no God" but if they can't even sustain a handful of beliefs that they agree on as well, how much could their agreement possibly be worth. I'm not saying it would be worth that much more if they did have multivalency, but at least you would know that it was worth something.

Life is too short, not to have believed something that made it possible to be aware of it ending.

:holy::preach::holy:
 

Sayre

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So this is something of a curiosity to me: atheism adopts the opinion that "there is no god" but basically stops there.

...

Otherwise you end up just revolving around the one concept that there is no god, which is not healthy.

Call me crazy*,

...

Ultimately, atheists think they "agree" on there being "no God" but if they can't even sustain a handful of beliefs that they agree on as well, how much could their agreement possibly be worth.

Hello crazy*,

Atheists don't have a belief other than "a-God". It stops there on purpose because that is all it is - a state of no belief in a God or gods. There is nothing else they need to add to that base belief because they aren't making positive claims that need further elaboration. They just have "a-God".

The whole thread is silly.




EDIT:
*This is, of course, a light hearted jest, since you said "Call me crazy" in the OP. I'd be crazy not to take up the invite, right? ;).
 
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Gottservant

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Hello crazy,

Atheists don't have a belief other than "a-God". It stops there on purpose because that is all it is - a state of no belief in a God or gods. There is nothing else they need to add to that base belief because they aren't making positive claims that need further elaboration. They just have "a-God".

The whole thread is silly.

The thread has a point or I wouldn't have started it, but I digress.

When an atheist goes about life they have all sorts of beliefs about everything. When they get in the car, they believe it needs gas, that to accelerate they need to press the pedal, that when they come to a stop sign they believe they need to brake. When they go to the grocery store, they believe they need a basket, they believe they need to pay, they believe they need to look for items that are important. When they get to work, they believe they need to listen to their boss, they believe they need to complete their work, they believe they need to agree with their coworkers...

...but when they come to belief in God: nope, He doesn't exist. Period.

You can't see that as some kind of big mistake? Do you honestly think that because you stop short of using your mind that people will believe that time has run out of for God? You don't think if there is a God, that He is relying on you using your beliefs about life to form an opinion of what He was? You don't see that saying no to this, is actually a kind of willful ignorance that could have dangerous consequences?

I'm not saying you have to have beliefs about God, that's the point, you could have beliefs about anything, only don't let your brain die, because you don't want to join in the fun, that is just crazy.
 
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variant

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The thread has a point or I wouldn't have started it, but I digress.

When an atheist goes about life they have all sorts of beliefs about everything. When they get in the car, they believe it needs gas, that to accelerate they need to press the pedal, that when they come to a stop sign they believe they need to brake. When they go to the grocery store, they believe they need a basket, they believe they need to pay, they believe they need to look for items that are important. When they get to work, they believe they need to listen to their boss, they believe they need to complete their work, they believe they need to agree with their coworkers...

...but when they come to belief in God: nope, He doesn't exist. Period.

You can't see that as some kind of big mistake? Do you honestly think that because you stop short of using your mind that people will believe that time has run out of for God? You don't think if there is a God, that He is relying on you using your beliefs about life to form an opinion of what He was? You don't see that saying no to this, is actually a kind of willful ignorance that could have dangerous consequences?

I'm not saying you have to have beliefs about God, that's the point, you could have beliefs about anything, only don't let your brain die, because you don't want to join in the fun, that is just crazy.

The difference between believing your car is going to start based upon experience and the idea that the universe requires an invisible all powerful entity to explain anything are two pretty different categories of claims.
 
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Gadarene

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I'm sure Christians would love it if they could force parity between themselves and atheism - goodness knows they try with their tired "atheism is just another religion" schtick.

But my atheism does simply extend to lacking belief in gods because that's simply what it is. I have other systems for thought, morality, etc. Deal.
 
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Sayre

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?

...by their fruits.

Gott said "call me crazy", did you even read the OP?

If you could demonstrate that point and I would be a theist.
?

I'm curious why that points to theism and not deism. Does it imply the constant action of a Creator God?
 
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variant

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I'm curious why that points to theism and not deism. Does it imply the constant action of a Creator God?

Theism is the belief that at least one God exists (or in the case of deism has existed if your the sort of deist that doesn't think god exists now).

Deism is a kind of theism.

Being a theist wouldn't make me any particular kind of theist as I was not being specific.
 
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Sayre

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Theism is the belief that at least one God exists (or in the case of deism has existed if your the sort of deist that doesn't think god exists now).

Deism is a kind of theism.

Being a theist wouldn't make me any particular kind of theist as I was not being specific.

OK - I understand that a Creator doesn't point to any particular Theistic God. I simply thought that a Creator pointed only to Deism, not to Theism. I personally don't see Deism as a type of Theism.

Just curious, that's all.
 
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Paradoxum

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Hi there,

So this is something of a curiosity to me: atheism adopts the opinion that "there is no god" but basically stops there. Now granted people take all sorts of tangents, pastafarianism for example, and there are many gods to which they object, but fundamentally atheism is not a multivalent approach to belief at all. By multivalent, I mean that it doesn't attempt to construct a belief system that accounts for multiple points of view, people don't say "I believe in the atheist way of life" they just say "I am an atheist". I understand that the latter is simpler, but the fact that the former is not present at all is rather spurious I think.

Atheism is just the non-belief in God. If you add anything to it then it isn't atheism... it might be something like naturalism or humanism.

Atheists could easily adopt the attitude that "there is no God, the Universe cannot be interacted with from the outside, the future is at no point going to revolve around God, the Name of God itself will meet the same fate of entropy as everything else". These are atheist ideas that flesh out the nature of the atheism and give structure to the expectations and understandings of atheism, such that should they get in a debate, for example, they would have such beliefs to negotiate with and through and around. Otherwise you end up just revolving around the one concept that there is no god, which is not healthy.

It might not be healthy to revolve around one concept, but I doubt many or any real people do. Personally I use the humanist symbol here because I'd rather stand for what I do believe in, rather than be defined by what I don't believe in.

You can be an atheist and naturalist, or humanist, or nihilist... etc, etc.

Atheism itself isn't a belief system. Atheism is part of other belief systems though.

The fallout from this is that atheists frequently obsess over religion and religious stupidity. In debates they frequently call religious people out for their unthinkingness and their lack of critical perspective, when this is completely unwarranted and unconstructive. If atheists actually had beliefs themselves, then it would be clear when they were thinking about the future, for example and not merely dwelling on the past failings of the human race to live a religion that is pure and unspotted. This actually leads to the idea that atheists are not merely unregenerate, but are objectionable and unkind and therefore ultimately lacking in knowledge, be it of themselves.

What do you mean by 'it would be clear when they were thinking about the future'?

Call me crazy, but if atheists actually believed in atheism systematically, it could actually do some benefit. Intellectual rigour doesn't have to revolve around praising a God you can't see, so that your problems are projected onto a future you can deal with; instead, you can have ideas about the future and reasoned arguments about what your attitude will be once you reach that future. To my mind, there is nothing easier than talking about the hope I have in the future, but for atheists it seems as if they are scared of the work that will mean.

I don't really know what you mean. What do you mean about having ideas about the future?

To be fair, multivalency opens up the possibility of disagreement. Not everyone will want to dwell on the entropy of the Universe, but that is rather the point. Ultimately, atheists think they "agree" on there being "no God" but if they can't even sustain a handful of beliefs that they agree on as well, how much could their agreement possibly be worth. I'm not saying it would be worth that much more if they did have multivalency, but at least you would know that it was worth something.

Well there probably are larger systems (such as secular humanism) which do have more to say.

Atheism is just one belief (or lack of belief), so it shouldn't be surprising that only contributes one position to one's worldview.
 
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essentialsaltes

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To be fair, multivalency opens up the possibility of disagreement.

Atheists do disagree on many topics. So do theists. So do Christians.

You are right that atheism is 'just' a lack of belief in gods, and this doesn't tell you very much about the person and their beliefs on many issues. That's okay with us. Atheism doesn't define us.
 
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variant

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Atheists do disagree on many topics. So do theists. So do Christians.

You are right that atheism is 'just' a lack of belief in gods, and this doesn't tell you very much about the person and their beliefs on many issues. That's okay with us. Atheism doesn't define us.

Thats a good way of putting it. Atheism simply isn't a personal/cultural identity like the various kinds of Christian is.
 
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Cearbhall

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Hello crazy,

Atheists don't have a belief other than "a-God". It stops there on purpose because that is all it is - a state of no belief in a God or gods. There is nothing else they need to add to that base belief because they aren't making positive claims that need further elaboration. They just have "a-God".

The whole thread is silly.
Precisely. Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism literally means "without deities." There's nothing else to it.
 
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Shemjaza

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This discussion made we wonder how people would react if the question:
"What religion are you?"
got the answer:
"Oh, I'm a theist."

Doesn't really tell you anything about them. I guess if you belong to a religion you are typically proud to state it outright. (Or maybe if you live in a place where honesty is bad for your health/security, you already have a lie ready.)
 
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A

Awaken4Christ

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The answer to your questions op is simple, Atheism is strongly rooted in naturalist/materialism philosophy. The car analogy does not apply because an athiest believes that the gas pedal will cause the car to work because it has been demonstrated in front of his own senses time and time again.

1 Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You see op, atheists are operating on a narrow band metaphysically speaking. A lot tend to be deeply rooted in the material plane. Perhaps this could be because they have tried to be spiritual and follow Jesus etc. and failed to feel the presence of God, or maybe they reject the Bible, or simply find it all to silly to begin with. There could be a number of reason but naturalistic philosophy tends to be a core issue.



There is also the possibility of subconsciously rejecting God because of having to deal with one's sin or even one's traumatic experiences, and while I believe these situations could happen, I feel this is not always the case and I feel this gets used a bit too much by Christians as an explanation to atheism.





 
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Paradoxum

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You see op, atheists are operating on a narrow band metaphysically speaking. A lot tend to be deeply rooted in the material plane. Perhaps this could be because they have tried to be spiritual and follow Jesus etc. and failed to feel the presence of God, or maybe they reject the Bible, or simply find it all to silly to begin with. There could be a number of reason but naturalistic philosophy tends to be a core issue.

I experienced what you might call the presence of God. I just know it could easily be my own brain.

Also, there probably are spiritual atheists. I mean, people who don't believe in gods, but do believe in spirits, karma, or other supernatural non-god things.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You see op, atheists are operating on a narrow band metaphysically speaking. A lot tend to be deeply rooted in the material plane.

I've got some bad/good news that I'm not sure you're ready to hear....but here goes...

You're operating on the same band we atheists are. Now before you get all bent out of shape, here's the easy part...knowing this won't actually change anything. You're still the same person you were before you read this, just a little wiser now. There's no metaphysical high horse to ride around on and look down upon us atheists. It's not an easy thing to let go of...realizing you're not a unique precious snowflake...you are. You're just no more unique or precious than the rest of us.
 
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Awaken4Christ

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I've got some bad/good news that I'm not sure you're ready to hear....but here goes...

You're operating on the same band we atheists are. Now before you get all bent out of shape, here's the easy part...knowing this won't actually change anything. You're still the same person you were before you read this, just a little wiser now. There's no metaphysical high horse to ride around on and look down upon us atheists. It's not an easy thing to let go of...realizing you're not a unique precious snowflake...you are. You're just no more unique or precious than the rest of us.

Well I agree that we share the experience of the material realm, I am just claiming that there is more to it than the material realm. I wasn't patronizing you, but you clearly have a bit of a snarky attitude. And yes there is a ton of things we can do in the material realm. It is useful. But it is only appreciated through a mind.. a consciousness. Now to many atheists the mind is simply the firing of neurons, but wow how interesting it is to think about why consciousness exists.

I can't give you any 100 percent scientific proof that God exists, I can only give you my personal testimony. There is only one experiment I know to prove God exists. It is a spiritual one. Call out to him, ask to have a relationship with him. Ask for a relationship with Jesus. God can tell if your heart is genuine when you do this. He knows if you will give up 5 minutes later or 5 months later. Read His Holy WORD.

Going back on topic, Do you disagree that atheism is strongly rooted in naturalism? I don't know why people would take offense because of that assertion.
 
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