Would you really teach "creation science"?

The Lady Kate · Sep 29, 2005

Defcon said:
Gee, I almost forgot why I hate to even participate in these discussions (and I use the term loosely), thanks for reminding me.

Any time. To your credit, at least you didn't use the old "Second Law of Thermodynamics" argument.

vossler · Sep 29, 2005

Defcon said:
I appear to be the only one pushing for ID to be taught so unless someone else wants to chime in on this topic on the pro-ID side, I see no value in pushing this further.

Sorry, Defcon I haven't been following this thread all too closely and didn't realize you were in need of support.

First of all to address the OP, I'll just come out and say the only solution is for us to teach the Bible in all public schools. The First Continental Congress in 1777 called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots". In 1782 Congress was responsible for America's first English language Bible. Once the Bible is allowed to be used as a textbook then Creation Science has it's source document from which all of it's hypotheses are based.

BTW, as much as everyone would like to argue that there isn't a lick of science to back up Creation, obviously those folks need to look again. There is all sorts of scientific evidence for the Creation of the Bible. We just can't allow the majority of the scientific community to drown out or minimize the evidence.

The Lady Kate · Sep 29, 2005

vossler said:
Sorry, Defcon I haven't been following this thread all too closely and didn't realize you were in need of support.

First of all to address the OP, I'll just come out and say the only solution is for us to teach the Bible in all public schools. The First Continental Congress in 1777 called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots". In 1782 Congress was responsible for America's first English language Bible. Once the Bible is allowed to be used as a textbook then Creation Science has it's source document from which all of it's hypotheses are based.

In the 1700s, the Continental Congress believed quite a few things... some of which we don't put into practice anymore.

BTW, as much as everyone would like to argue that there isn't a lick of science to back up Creation, obviously those folks need to look again. There is all sorts of scientific evidence for the Creation of the Bible. We just can't allow the majority of the scientific community to drown out or minimize the evidence.

At the risk of derailing the thread, can you give a few examples?

vossler · Sep 29, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
In the 1700s, the Continental Congress believed quite a few things... some of which we don't put into practice anymore.

That's the problem

The Lady Kate said:
At the risk of derailing the thread, can you give a few examples?

All you have to do is visit AiG and there is more than enough. Are you asking me to cite them?

The Lady Kate · Sep 29, 2005

vossler said:
That's the problem

I was referring to such time-honored traditions such as slavery, poll tax, and denying women the right to vote.

Had the Founding Fathers been omniscient, they'd have seen the error of some of their ways. As it is, we've had to correct them.

Personally, I can accept the fact that the government can not cater to my religious beliefs at the expense of others.... fine by me, the last thing I'd want is government-sanctioned religion.

All you have to do is visit AiG and there is more than enough. Are you asking me to cite them?

Since you did bring it up, how about a couple of examples in your own words?

vossler · Sep 29, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
Since you did bring it up, how about a couple of examples in your own words?

I don't know what use it will be, because all you'll do is challenge them. But here you go:

Trilibytes, dinosaur fossils, and human fossils are found all in the same layer of sediment and this layer is found all over the world.

There are countless drawing done by people a long time ago that show dinosaur like creatures.

* I didn't even go to AiG for these

The Lady Kate · Sep 29, 2005

vossler said:
I don't know what use it will be, because all you'll do is challenge them.

You expect me not to challenge claims?

But here you go:

Trilibytes, dinosaur fossils, and human fossils are found all in the same layer of sediment and this layer is found all over the world.

Interesting... what else do we know about this layer of sediment?

There are countless drawing done by people a long time ago that show dinosaur like creatures.

Not surprising. All sorts of mythical creatures have been imagined over the centuries. Giant reptiles is hardly a unique idea.

* I didn't even go to AiG for these

So where are you going to find the details to substantiate these?

shernren · Sep 29, 2005

First of all to address the OP, I'll just come out and say the only solution is for us to teach the Bible in all public schools. The First Continental Congress in 1777 called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots". In 1782 Congress was responsible for America's first English language Bible. Once the Bible is allowed to be used as a textbook then Creation Science has it's source document from which all of it's hypotheses are based.

Yeah, teach the Bible - alongside the Koran, the Vedas and the Analects of Confucius. Would you really want that? The exclusive teaching of the Bible by your government would be a perfect step to starting World War III between Muslims and Christians.

Actually, though, I agree that the Bible has a very good purpose in teaching - namely in teaching the English language. Out of necessity, the translators of the Bible had excellent English, and this has meant that the Bible has beautiful English and it makes perfect sense to use it as a source of English literature. One of the outreaches my church has is using the Bible to teach Chinese students who come here to study but have little to no knowledge of English.

But what hypotheses would you take from the Bible? What scientific predictions does the Bible make? And how do you validate them?

There are countless drawing done by people a long time ago that show dinosaur like creatures.

So what species of dinosaur was the Hydra? Or the Cyclops? Or the Siren? Or the Sphinx? People have fertile imaginations and it doesn't take too much to imagine a humongous lizard, especially given animals like alligators to start with. In fact, I think the public image of dinosaurs (Jurassic Park and all) owes a lot more to imagination than to science.

vossler · Sep 29, 2005

shernren said:
Yeah, teach the Bible - alongside the Koran, the Vedas and the Analects of Confucius. Would you really want that? The exclusive teaching of the Bible by your government would be a perfect step to starting World War III between Muslims and Christians.

No, just the Bible. We're a Christian Nation and the written source of our faith and what we believe is the Bible. Our nation was built on the precepts of the Bible, therefore our children should know what it is the Bible says.

shernren said:
But what hypotheses would you take from the Bible? What scientific predictions does the Bible make? And how do you validate them?

I don't believe the Bible makes scientific predictions.

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 29, 2005

vossler said:
No, just the Bible. We're a Christian Nation and the written source of our faith and what we believe is the Bible. Our nation was built on the precepts of the Bible, therefore our children should know what it is the Bible says.

Which Bible?

I don't believe the Bible makes scientific predictions.

Your actions to harmonize science with a literal reading say otherwise.

The Lady Kate · Sep 30, 2005

vossler said:
No, just the Bible. We're a Christian Nation and the written source of our faith and what we believe is the Bible. Our nation was built on the precepts of the Bible, therefore our children should know what it is the Bible says.

So would you say that we're a "Christian nation" which just so happens to tolerate the presence of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists within our borders?

Are they just guests within our Christian nation?

I don't believe the Bible makes scientific predictions.

Agreed. So why teach it as if it did?

vossler · Sep 30, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
So would you say that we're a "Christian nation" which just so happens to tolerate the presence of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists within our borders?

Are they just guests within our Christian nation?

What's your point?

The Lady Kate said:
Agreed. So why teach it as if it did?

Who's asking them to?

The Lady Kate · Sep 30, 2005

vossler said:
What's your point?

My point is where do these citizens fit into the "Christian nation"?

Who's asking them to?

"Creation Scientists," for starters.

vossler · Sep 30, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
My point is where do these citizens fit into the "Christian nation"?

As any other citizens who haven't accepted Jesus.

The Lady Kate said:
"Creation Scientists," for starters.

If they are teaching that it does, then I suppose you need to ask them why. There must a reason.

shernren · Sep 30, 2005

No, just the Bible. We're a Christian Nation and the written source of our faith and what we believe is the Bible. Our nation was built on the precepts of the Bible, therefore our children should know what it is the Bible says.

I know this is veering, but your nation was built during a time when the only precepts on which nations were founded were the precepts of the Bible. The main fight was between Catholicism and Protestantism, opposite ends of a same Christian spectrum. This might be just personal opinion but I'd think your nation was just following the crowd to be founded as a Christian nation.

Today the scenario is different. Many alternative religions and quasi-religions have gained some form of credibility. The way to counter these religions is not to protect and enshrine Christianity, but to let it loose to compete with the others. If you really believe Christianity is the one true way to God, then Christianity will ring truer in the classrooms when it faces off with other religions and shows it strength and robustness. We have a beautiful faith. There is no need to protect God by forcing a nation to worship Him. He can fend for Himself! America isn't a Christian nation because it has a Christian constitution - it is (or will be) a Christian nation only when its people are Christian.

It's something like when Paul preached. Did he need to ask that nobody else preach their own religion? Hardly! When he preached in Ephesus, the town clerk could confidently say that Paul had not insulted their temple or slandered their God. There is no need to drag idols out to be burned. Let the individual come face to face with the living God and the idols will want to flee even before we command them to.

The Lady Kate · Oct 2, 2005

vossler said:
As any other citizens who haven't accepted Jesus.

I'm afraid to ask what a "Christian nation" does to such people.

If they are teaching that it does, then I suppose you need to ask them why. There must a reason.

Indoctrination and proselytizing, of course.

vossler · Oct 3, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
I'm afraid to ask what a "Christian nation" does to such people.

I would hope make Christians out of them.

The Lady Kate said:
Indoctrination and proselytizing, of course.

If you already knew, why did you ask?

vossler · Oct 3, 2005

shernren said:
I know this is veering, but your nation was built during a time when the only precepts on which nations were founded were the precepts of the Bible. The main fight was between Catholicism and Protestantism, opposite ends of a same Christian spectrum. This might be just personal opinion but I'd think your nation was just following the crowd to be founded as a Christian nation.

Quite an interesting hypothesis. What "crowd" were they following?

shrenren said:
Today the scenario is different. Many alternative religions and quasi-religions have gained some form of credibility. The way to counter these religions is not to protect and enshrine Christianity, but to let it loose to compete with the others. If you really believe Christianity is the one true way to God, then Christianity will ring truer in the classrooms when it faces off with other religions and shows it strength and robustness. We have a beautiful faith. There is no need to protect God by forcing a nation to worship Him. He can fend for Himself! America isn't a Christian nation because it has a Christian constitution - it is (or will be) a Christian nation only when its people are Christian.

Our nation never desired to enshrine Christianity but to extol its virtues. If our nations fathers based their decisions upon their faith then it should be taught in school. Our kids should learn what it was that made our country great and its basis on Christianity was a key component of it.

shrenren said:
It's something like when Paul preached. Did he need to ask that nobody else preach their own religion? Hardly! When he preached in Ephesus, the town clerk could confidently say that Paul had not insulted their temple or slandered their God. There is no need to drag idols out to be burned. Let the individual come face to face with the living God and the idols will want to flee even before we command them to.

The point is he preached his own religion, not another. That's all I'm suggesting.

The Lady Kate · Oct 3, 2005

vossler said:
I would hope make Christians out of them.

Three questions:

1: Since our current government isn't in the business of converting people to Christianity, why then do you call this a "Christian Nation"?

2: How exactly would/should our government go about making Christians out of non-believers?

3: What then should be done with our citizens who choose not to convert?

If you already knew, why did you ask?

It's called a rhetorical question.

vossler · Oct 3, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
Three questions:

1: Since our current government isn't in the business of converting people to Christianity, why then do you call this a "Christian Nation"?

2: How exactly would/should our government go about making Christians out of non-believers?

3: What then should be done with our citizens who choose not to convert?

I hope these aren't rhetorical too?!?

1. Who says anything about the government converting people, it's the church that should do the converting.

2. See above.

3. Nothing, they can accept Christianity or reject it, it's up to them.

Would you really teach "creation science"?

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