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Would it be unionism to participate in another Christian denomination's rite of public confession and absolution??
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Would it be unionism to participate in another Christian denomination's rite of public confession and absolution??
Would it be unionism to participate in another Christian denomination's rite of public confession and absolution??
It would be considered worshiping with a heterodox congregation. We as Lutherans should not do so.
Just out of curiosity, what non-Lutheran churches practice corporate confession and absolution? Is it in the Anglican liturgy? It isn't in the RCC liturgy is it?
I think it would be considered so. By confessing with the other denomination's members and being absolved by another denomination's representative of God, then you are saying you agree with what they teach. Do you? If not, I would refrain from confession and absolution in another denomination's church, unless it's a church that is in fellowship with my church. I would also not pray with these people or partake of Communion with them for I do not want others to assume that I am in doctrinal agreement with another denomination, when it's probable that I'm not. Which denomination are you asking about?
So its unionism just to go to their service then? I don't buy it, simpily setting foot in a church doesn't say, I agree with what is said here. Joining in membership does, taking communion does. . .
Unionism is joint worship.
I'm not in agreement with everything they teach. I'm mostly just curious, partially because they are an extremely small church (nationally speaking) and partially because they seem to agree with us on about 90% of what they teach.
There is still that 10% that isn't going to make me interested in joining their church. Apostolic succession, transubstantiation, and their rejection of origioinal sin are the big things I mostly want to find out in practice if they pray to saints/mary.
I'm not going to take communion, I have no plans on it. But they do also do public confession & absolution much like us. And I never saw it as something that indicates an agreement on doctrine. If that where true, why don't we practice closed/close confession and absolution as we do with communion?
So praying with others to God in Church or elsewhere is not a form of fellowship with those other people, in this case, heterodox believers?As far as prayer with the heterodox, thats something that keeps me out of communion with the WELS because I don't see prayer as a fellowship that inicates an agreement on doctrine either.
To clarify also, if its considered unionism, I really don't have to go to that church, I was mostly just curious.
But to tell me that I can't go to funerals, weddings, and baptisms (all of which involve an element of worship) of family members because those family members arn't Lutheran. . . I'm sorry thats almost a bridge too far for me.
It never seemed to be a problem for my aunt and uncle. My aunt (by marriage) has been LCMS her whole life, and my uncle joined when they married. In fact it hasn't even really been a problem for her mother & father, also LCMS their whole lives.
And for that matter how does that affect my wife who as part of her work duties takes her clients to their church which is Baptist (and sits with them during service)?
To clarify the people she works with have developmental disabilities.
As far as I know both the WELS and the LCMS have retained private confession and absolution as per the Confessions. I don't know of anyone who utilizes it and I've heard pastors say that they will sit in their office all day and wait for people to come for private confession and absolution and no one shows up. But it is available. You should talk to your pastor about it, if you ever need to confess privately.
I'm interested to know why you're okay with confession and absolution with heterodox believers but not Communion.
Plus what are these people confessing that they need to be absolved from? They deny original sin. It makes no sense.
So praying with others to God in Church or elsewhere is not a form of fellowship with those other people, in this case, heterodox believers?
No one is going to stop you from going to the funerals of non-Lutheran family members. The advice I was given for a similar situation, not a funeral, was that you can go, just avoid praying with them or participating in any way. Just be present. That's what my pastor told me, when he's attended the funerals of non-Lutherans. It upholds the WELS fellowship rules and also allows you to be there to bury your loved ones.
[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]
Q:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Italic][FONT=Calibri,Italic]Is it wrong for a member of an LCMS congregation to receive Holy Communion at an ELCA church? Is
it wrong for an ELCA member to receive Holy Communion at an LCMS church?
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]A:[/FONT][/FONT]The LCMS practices "close communion," which is summarized as follows by the Synod's Commission on Theology and Church Relations (CTCR): In keeping with the principle that the celebration and reception of the Lord's Supper is a confession of the unity of faith, while at the same time recognizing that there will be instances when sensitive pastoral care needs to be exercised, the Synod has established an official practice requiring "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod, except in situations of emergency and in special cases of pastoral care, commune individuals of only those synods which are now in fellowship with us." By following this practice whereby only those individuals who are members of the Synod or of a church body with which the Synod is in altar and pulpit fellowship are ordinarily communed, pastors and congregations preserve the integrity of their witness to the gospel of Christ as it is revealed in the Scriptures and confessed in the Lutheran
confessional writings. The Synod has not attempted to define precisely what constitutes "special cases of pastoral care," but has entrusted to its pastors and congregations the responsibility to make judgments in individual cases about the propriety of communing non-LCMS Christians.
With regard to LCMS members communing at non-LCMS altars, the CTCR says the following in its report
on the[FONT=Calibri,Italic][FONT=Calibri,Italic][FONT=Calibri,Italic]Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Italic][FONT=Calibri,Italic]:
[/FONT][/FONT]"In accordance with the confessional nature of participation in the Lord's supper, and in agreement with Lutheranism's historic position, it is inappropriate to attend the Lord's Supper at non-Lutheranin a church with which such agreement is not shared."
altars. Since participation in Holy Communion, scripturally and confessionally understood, entails agreement in the Gospel and all its articles, it would not be appropriate to attend the Lord's Supper
But I'm not talking about private confession, I'm talking about public confession.
We as Lutherans don't do that, one because we don't know the religious affiliation of the people confessing next to us. They could be visitors from another synod that we are in fellowship with or they could be from another denomination. But it is they who are breaking fellowship with their church by confessing with us. Why should we kick them out for that? That's between them and their church.If we belive public confession is a sign of agreement on doctrine with the church, then by all logic we should push out those people who are not agreeing with us on doctrine from particpating in the confession. But that isn't something we do. We confess we are sinful creatures in need of forgivness, we meditate on that and specific sins we may have committed, the pastor states that by Christ's authority we are forgiven.
I told you to check with your pastor at your church if you are seeking private confession and absolution. And you should always check with the pastor about things like this when visiting another church. That's just polite.Nothing ever indicates that you should check with the pastor to participate in this rite.
And you've received answers on it. Granted answers you don't like.Acutally I didn't necessarily say that confession and absolution was ok, I was asking that here.
Ultimately it will appear that you are in agreement with them if you participate in their rites. Now, whether or not you actually are or not, no one can know for sure. But by participating in the rite of Confession and Absolution in a heterodox church, you will appear to be in agreement with them.Ultimatly one has to know if being forgiven by the minister of another denomination or the person holding the office of the keys necessarily means that you accept all of their doctrines. . . Or does the public aspect of it make you united with the believers around you.
Simply setting foot in the church is not going to change you into whatever they are. What it is going to do is make it appear that you are one of them and do agree with what they teach. I, personally would never set foot in a church that denies original sin, but that's just me.I don't have a problem with opting out of specific aspects of worship such as that if they are unionistic. But what I do disagree with is that going to a church, saying a couple of prayers, and maybe singing some hymns and listening to a sermon suddenly makes me in agreement with everything they belive in.
You're misunderstanding what's being said. If someone from another denomination comes and worships with us, THEY are breaking fellowship with their church by attending ours. We're just holding Sunday worship as we always do.If thats true we certainly don't apply that standard in our churchs. Its not assumed that just because you came to worship on Sunday morning one day that you then automatically agree with everything that we teach.
Yes it does. If there is no original sin, it is not possible for someone to be a sinner now. Since sin never entered the world through Adam and Eve, we as their offspring can not be born with the sinful nature that causes us to sin. We can not have the old Adam.Denying origional sin does not deny that you are a sinner now. It just denies that you are born a sinner. Like I said I totally disagree with that. But one isn't hypocritical in saying "I don't belive in origional sin but I belive I'm a sinner."
There are different levels of fellowship.
Simple prayer fellowship needs only to recognize that other believers pray to the same God IE that they are properly understood to be Christians.
Look it's obvious you really wanna go and participate in the rites of this heterodox church and nothing anyone says to the contrary is going to sway you.
One can participating on it while still recognizing that the people they are praying with err in their understanding of the faith. Prayer only publically acknowledges an agreement on the same God.
Communion has historically been seen as a oneness with not only God but also with the men and women around you. We share in the table of the Lord and it makes us one.
Yeah, go to a funeral sit there quietly and don't do a thing. Ya know, proper funeral behavior? The difference is that I'm being faithful to the teachings of my faith and synod and lift those above what the world says the right thing to do is. The atheist, on the other hand, has no faith to uphold and fully embraces the teachings and ways of this world and does so thinking he or she is wise and good.So in other words go to the funeral, sit there quietly and don't do a thing. Basically act like you don't belive a word they say no matter what that word happens to be??? That seperates the way you proclaim your faith from the way an atheist proclaims his in what way?
I told you to check with your pastor at your church if you are seeking private confession and absolution. And you should always check with the pastor about things like this when visiting another church. That's just polite.
And you've received answers on it. Granted answers you don't like.
Ultimately it will appear that you are in agreement with them if you participate in their rites. Now, whether or not you actually are or not, no one can know for sure. But by participating in the rite of Confession and Absolution in a heterodox church, you will appear to be in agreement with them.
Simply setting foot in the church is not going to change you into whatever they are. What it is going to do is make it appear that you are one of them and do agree with what they teach. I, personally would never set foot in a church that denies original sin, but that's just me.
You're misunderstanding what's being said. If someone from another denomination comes and worships with us, THEY are breaking fellowship with their church by attending ours. We're just holding Sunday worship as we always do.
Yes it does. If there is no original sin, it is not possible for someone to be a sinner now. Since sin never entered the world through Adam and Eve, we as their offspring can not be born with the sinful nature that causes us to sin. We can not have the old Adam.
The sin of the “first parents” does not pass to succeeding generations.
Look it's obvious you really wanna go and participate in the rites of this heterodox church and nothing anyone says to the contrary is going to sway you.
Yeah, go to a funeral sit there quietly and don't do a thing. Ya know, proper funeral behavior? The difference is that I'm being faithful to the teachings of my faith and synod and lift those above what the world says the right thing to do is. The atheist, on the other hand, has no faith to uphold and fully embraces the teachings and ways of this world and does so thinking he or she is wise and good.
I'm not going there to receive absolution, I'm just going for the service to see what its like. The absolution I can get in my home church.
Really I could care less about the confession and absolution. I really could I was checking to see if I should participate in the rite or not. If there is good reason to not participate in the rite then I won't particpate.
It's not wrong to simply go and see how they conduct a service. It is wrong to participate in that service. I really don't think by attending once, you're gonna see what you're really there to see, which is if they pray to the saints and Mary.The answer I don't like is that its unionism to even go in the first place. And the reason I don't like it is because I think its totally wrong.
I can't make this any more simple. A person who comes to a Lutheran church who is not a Lutheran, but a member of another denomination is breaking fellowship with their church. Do you understand that?Again I disagree with this. . . Do you assume that everyone that comes to your church is a Lutheran then?
If they don't take Communion, they are doing as they are told by my pastor. We tell people who are not members of our church or are visiting from a church not in fellowship with us to refrain from taking Communion. It's not confusing to me at all and your assertion that it is, is totally uncalled for and I would like to ask you to either refrain from such behavior in future posts or stop responding to my posts if you can't post to me in a civil manner.What do you think of them if they don't take communion? Does that confuse you? Because based on what you are saying a person showing up to church but refusing communion must be the most confusing thing ever!
No, by not taking Communion they are doing as instructed by the pastor. By showing up they're breaking fellowship with their church. We teach that by going to another church it appears you agree with that church in matters of doctrine. I haven't seen any other church say that.Because by showing up they appear to agree with you on doctrine. But then again by not taking communion they appear to not agree. What gives?
I'm not kidding you. I'm answering your questions.So their neice is being baptized today and they want to be there. Therefore they are breaking fellowhip with their church. Are you kidding me?
Who's statement is this? LCMS? PNCC? It would help if you'd be clear in areas such as posting the statements of others.This is their statement on it, judge it for yourself.
No its obvious that I want a consistant definition that is consistant with how we behave and what the synod teaches as a whole. Not your synod but my synod.[/quote
]Fine, then I suggest you go and find an LCMS pastor other than DaRev, who will tell you exactly what your itching ears wanna hear on this matter, and use that to attend this heterodox church. That should make you very happy and put an end to this nonsense.
So what? God knows the difference between myself and the atheist.And in everything you do, you look the same.
The church sings Amazing grace. . . you don't sing amazing grace because they have the wrong doctrines. The atheist doesn't sing amazing grace because they don't belive in grace.[/quote]So we're onto Amazing Grace now? I thought this thread was about Unionism. Which is it? Or is this thread no longer about Unionism, but about me? I will not sing with members of a heterodox church. Also, I will not sing with members of other churches outside the church. Recently at my family reunion, the relatives wanted to sing old time Gospel songs, ya know like The Blackwoods and The Statler Brothers stuff? I didn't sing one single song with them. So, for me, this teaching extends outside the church. I live out what I believe.
The church prays for the family and soul of the departed.
You don't pray because that church has the wrong doctrine.So this thread is now about me. Like I said before, God knows my heart and He knows the difference between myself and the atheist and THAT matters more than anything you think.
The atheist doesn't pray because he doesn't belive in prayer, God or a soul.
You don't pray the Lord's prayer with them because. . . I don't know why to be honest because there is no false doctrine in the Lord's prayer.
The atheist doesn't pray the Lord's prayer with them because he doesn't belive in said Lord.
In everything you do, you are doing the same thing as the atheist or a non-Christian.
I don't care what you think about my public behavior at a funeral, which you have never seen and never will see. My behavior at a funeral will consist of sitting or standing there, being quiet, and probably crying for my departed loved one. If you've got a problem with that? Guess what? I don't care.I should say non-Christian, as I can understand a Muslim would not pray because his false God is clearly different from our true God and he wants to only pray to his false God.
If I'm at that funeral, I'm thinking your not a Christian by your behavior, that is what your public behavior says to me by not praying or singing.
Now if you abstain from one prayer or one song because of the false doctrine in the prayer or song. Its different...
If you abstain from specific other rites its different.Don't try and chastise me, because you've misunderstood pretty much everything I've written to you. How dare you question my faith! You are way out of line here. Think whatever you want about me, I don't care. I'll see you in Heaven.
But when you abstain from "Let us pray: Dear Lord receive into your loving care your servant John Doe. . ." it says to me that you in one way or the other don't belive that the Lord received John Doe. Which might be ok if John Doe's faith is questionable. But if John Doe was clearly a Roman Catholic and believed the doctrines of that church, then he's saved by grace alone through faith alone despite his heterodoxy.
Maybe you should go back and read your first post in this thread which said this:
Would it be unionism to participate in another Christian denomination's rite of public confession and absolution??
So it seems that you do care after all and are very interested in another denom's rite of Confession and Absolution. If you can get it in your own church and never had any intention of participating in this rite in a heterodox church, why start this thread asking if it would be okay?
It's not wrong to simply go and see how they conduct a service. It is wrong to participate in that service. I really don't think by attending once, you're gonna see what you're really there to see, which is if they pray to the saints and Mary.
I can't make this any more simple. A person who comes to a Lutheran church who is not a Lutheran, but a member of another denomination is breaking fellowship with their church. Do you understand that?
No, by not taking Communion they are doing as instructed by the pastor. By showing up they're breaking fellowship with their church. We teach that by going to another church it appears you agree with that church in matters of doctrine. I haven't seen any other church say that.
I'm not kidding you. I'm answering your questions
Who's statement is this? LCMS? PNCC? It would help if you'd be clear in areas such as posting the statements of others.
Fine, then I suggest you go and find an LCMS pastor other than DaRev, who will tell you exactly what your itching ears wanna hear on this matter, and use that to attend this heterodox church. That should make you very happy and put an end to this nonsense.
So what? God knows the difference between myself and the atheist.
So we're onto Amazing Grace now? I thought this thread was about Unionism. Which is it? Or is this thread no longer about Unionism, but about me? I will not sing with members of a heterodox church. Also, I will not sing with members of other churches outside the church.
Recently at my family reunion, the relatives wanted to sing old time Gospel songs, ya know like The Blackwoods and The Statler Brothers stuff? I didn't sing one single song with them. So, for me, this teaching extends outside the church. I live out what I believe.
So this thread is now about me. Like I said before, God knows my heart and He knows the difference between myself and the atheist and THAT matters more than anything you think.
I don't care what you think about my public behavior at a funeral, which you have never seen and never will see. My behavior at a funeral will consist of sitting or standing there, being quiet, and probably crying for my departed loved one. If you've got a problem with that? Guess what? I don't care.
Don't try and chastise me, because you've misunderstood pretty much everything I've written to you. How dare you question my faith! You are way out of line here. Think whatever you want about me, I don't care. I'll see you in Heaven.
So the effect of what you are saying is that a LCMS Lutheran should basically never set foot in a non LCMS church for anything. Which includes weddings and funerals as well as baptisms.
So if my grandmother's funeral is at the Roman Catholic Church down the street, you are telling me it would be unionism to go to my grandmother's funeral?
I'm also not allowed to go to a family member's baptism if they are not in the LCMS?
Am I correct in what you are saying?
I talk about going to a worship service in a heterodox congregation you respond "Thats unionism" and "you will appear to agree with their doctrines because you sang/prayed with them."
And I say ok if that is so to be honest not singing and not praying kinda makes you appear to be an atheist and your response to that is "God knows my heart."
You said you were going to this church to find out if they worship the Saints and Mary. So go do that. You wanted to know if it would be Unionism to go to this church and you were told it would be. You don't like the answers you're getting. But remember, the answers to our questions, aren't always the ones we want or would like them to be. Not singing and not praying with them does not make you look like an atheist, because what would an atheist be doing in a church on Sunday morning? I'm done responding to you in this thread. Your questions have been answered. You need to figure out what you're gonna do with the information you've been given.
Thats what I don't get. . . is it about appearences or not?
Also what bugs me is the advice Rev is giving me is totally different from the advice of the synod.
In all of that while it totally and rightly condemns the practice of communion at heterodox tables. . . at the same time it never states or mentions one word saying "No you shouldn't even be at the same service."
That's because the question is addressing Communion in particular and not the attending of heterodox worship services.
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