Would a Christian considered a Jew?

twin1954 · Aug 4, 2016

SkyWriting said:
If you think they were any different then than now, explain why and how they were different.
You've not shown any differences.

They were different in the fact that from the beginning God had a specific bloodline through which Christ would come as the Seed of the woman. It can be traced from the sons of Adam through the sons of Noah then to Abraham to Judah to David to Solomon to Christ. That is why the genealogies are so very important. The Jews were a separated people for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world. But now that He has come they are no longer required to be a people and that is why they cannot trace even their tribe today much less their family history. Before Christ came they had all the elements of worship except the ark in the Holy of Holies. They still had a priesthood and the sacrifices except that they had so corrupted the worship of God into a man made religion. God had prepared them for the coming of Christ so that when He came they would reject Him because of their religion.

Now they no longer have a Temple, the sacrifices, the ark or a priesthood. They were scattered and dispersed and so mingled with Gentiles that none can truly even be called a Jew anymore. They are Jews in name only but no longer the people of God.

Even in the Old Testament when God speaks of Jacob and Israel He is speaking of a spiritual people not just a physical nation in the lineage of Abraham. The Old Testament Jews were always a typical people and never actually kept the Law or the true worship of God.

There were some among them, the ones mentioned in Heb. 11 for example, that did live by faith in the promised One but as a people they never actually worshipped God as they had repeatedly promised to do.

That nation in Palestine is not a special nation any more than is the U.S.

It would take too long and be far to tedious to read for me to post all the Scriptures that show these things. I have given several already in this thread and they should suffice.

SkyWriting · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
They were different in the fact that from the beginning God had a specific bloodline through which Christ would come as the Seed of the woman. It can be traced from the sons of Adam through the sons of Noah then to Abraham to Judah to David to Solomon to Christ. That is why the genealogies are so very important. The Jews were a separated people for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world.

You said all that. None of what you said requires that the people involved be called "Jews".
God has enough control, He doesn't need the help from "Jews" to control the bloodlines.
There is no function now, that differs from before Jesus was born.

IF that were the case, you're response would be James 3:19 " God's chosen people are no longer needed."
and you wouldn't need a page long sermon, without one passage of scripture, to make a false point.

twin1954 · Aug 4, 2016

SkyWriting said:
You said all that. None of what you said requires that the people involved be called "Jews".
God has enough control, He doesn't need the help from "Jews" to control the bloodlines.
There is no function now, that differs from before Jesus was born.

IF that were the case, you're response would be James 3:19 " God's chosen people are no longer needed."
and you wouldn't need a page long sermon, without one passage of scripture, to make a false point.

No He didn't need the Jews but He uses means and the means that He used was to keep the Jews separate from the rest of the world in order to show the lineage of Christ as the Messiah. I don't need a false passage of Scripture to prove my point for the whole of the Scriptures does so.

The Bible isn't a book about the history of the Jews but a spiritual book which has one theme and one message: Christ and His Gospel. The key to understanding the Book isn't dividing it into Dispensations but in finding Christ in all of the Scriptures.

(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Which Scriptures do you think the Lord Jesus was talking about?

When He spoke to those men on the road to Emmaus which Scriptures did He expound concerning Himself?

(Luk 24:25) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

(Luk 24:26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

(Luk 24:27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Christ is the key that unlocks the Scriptures and in order to rightly divide the word of truth, that is to grasp and understand them not to separate them into divisions, it can only be done by seeing one message, one people and one theme.

twin1954 · Aug 4, 2016

But since you require a passage that speaks directly to them no longer being a people I will give you one.

(Rom 10:18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

(Rom 10:19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

(Rom 10:20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

(Rom 10:21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

(Rom 11:2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

(Rom 11:3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

(Rom 11:4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

(Rom 11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

SkyWriting · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
No He didn't need the Jews but He uses means and the means that He used was to keep the Jews separate from the rest of the world in order to show the lineage of Christ as the Messiah. I don't need a false passage of Scripture to prove my point for the whole of the Scriptures does so.

The Bible isn't a book about the history of the Jews but a spiritual book which has one theme and one message: Christ and His Gospel. The key to understanding the Book isn't dividing it into Dispensations but in finding Christ in all of the Scriptures.

(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Which Scriptures do you think the Lord Jesus was talking about?

When He spoke to those men on the road to Emmaus which Scriptures did He expound concerning Himself?

(Luk 24:25) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

(Luk 24:26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

(Luk 24:27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Christ is the key that unlocks the Scriptures and in order to rightly divide the word of truth, that is to grasp and understand them not to separate them into divisions, it can only be done by seeing one message, one people and one theme.

Oh, I agree with your stand that Jesus changed everything.
But He didn't really "Change" anything. The Jews are the
same people they always were. Practically speaking, there
is no change. Yes, God's laws have had the way they are
applied changed, but Jews are still the same people they
were before. God's laws have been fulfilled by Jesus.

Believers have changed, not the group called Jews.

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

twin1954 · Aug 4, 2016

SkyWriting said:
Oh, I agree with your stand that Jesus changed everything.
But He didn't really "Change" anything. The Jews are the
same people they always were. Practically speaking, there
is no change. Yes, God's laws have had the way they are
applied changed, but Jews are still the same people they
were before. God's laws have been fulfilled by Jesus.

Believers have changed, not the group called Jews.

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So do you believe that the Jews are still a people who can trace their lineage? That was what separated them. They all traced their lineage back to Abraham but that just isn't the case today. Even the Jews themselves admit this fact.

SkyWriting · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
So do you believe that the Jews are still a people who can trace their lineage? That was what separated them. They all traced their lineage back to Abraham but that just isn't the case today. Even the Jews themselves admit this fact.

Baptists do this, Mormons do this, my uncle does this.
Everyone on Ancestery.com is special? Do you think
Jesus needed specially guarded DNA to create Jesus?
What is being said here? God has not changed anything.
Yes the Jews has tons of rules. They are an archetype
of Christians today. They serve / have served as an
example-type of the church.

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The rules is: Cut everybody slack just as you would like
to have slack cutteth unto you. This is the narrow gate.

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

JM said:
A true Jew is a Jew inwardly. That is what I posted.

Judaism today is a false, idolatrous religion.

Amen! A false synagogue of Satan!

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
You call Messianic Judaism "false?"

They are called Judaizers.

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

JM said:
Dave,

If you are seeking to maintain the Jewish religion, the Old Mosaic covenant and practices along with belief in Jesus Christ yes, it is false. Christianity, the faith Christ brings to us in the New Covenant of Grace, is the fulfillment of the promises made under the Old Covenant making them obsolete.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: Messianic believers are not suppose to teach in the Baptist forum. Just a friendly reminder.

Amen! Nailed to the Cross!

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

JM said:
Gosh I hope not! The Jewish religion today is not biblical. Judaism cannot exist without the Temple and sacrifices which is why it was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Amen! God’s Holy Word!

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

Steve Petersen said:
Judaism existed for 70 years when the first temple was destroyed. I continues to exist 2000 years after the second one was destroyed.

Only by the power of Satan and his minions.

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
Find me a Jew today who can actually prove his tribe or linage. Though some may claim to they simply cannot for all the records were destroyed in 70 A. D.

The “jews” of today are Khazars and not remotely related to any of Gods people.

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
The land promise was fulfilled but they chose to follow other gods and lost the arm of the Lord which would have given them all the land. Joshua told them that the promise was fulfilled all they had to do was take it.

Moreover show me a Jew today who can actually trace his lineage. They are no longer a people.

The Messiah came at the appointed time when God had prepared the Jews to reject Him.

Amen!! Amen!! And God sill despises those that claim to be of tribe that tried to kill Him, but they are of Satan! Praise the Risen Lord!!

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
No FB site but a simple recognition of Baptist Covenant theology which has been held to since Baptists had a beginning.

Though man may see them a a nation or group of people it makes no difference. They cannot trace their lineage or even know for sure what tribe they come from. They do not have the Temple or priests nor do they keep any of the laws. Of course they never actually did anyway. They are Jews in name only but as the people of God they are no longer a people.

There is nothing holy or sacred about the land in Palestine, no matter what the world believes, and no holy place to which the Jews can come to worship God. There is no Ark of the Covenant, no holy place, no alter or shewbread. They have no means by which they can continue as the people of God separate from the rest of the world. Their whole history was in order to bring Christ into the world and now that He is sitting on the throne they are no longer needed.

Amen Brother! You speak God’s Holy truth!

He is Risen 72 · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
I have already given you several Scriptures but you have ignored them. Why should I think that you wouldn't ignore more?

I have actually given you much more Scripture to support my view than you have. I would require the same of you. Where is your Scriptural support?

They doubt God’s Holy words as recorded in the Bible

twin1954 · Aug 4, 2016

SkyWriting said:
Baptists do this, Mormons do this, my uncle does this.
Everyone on Ancestery.com is special? Do you think
Jesus needed specially guarded DNA to create Jesus?
What is being said here? God has not changed anything.
Yes the Jews has tons of rules. They are an archetype
of Christians today. They serve / have served as an
example-type of the church.

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The rules is: Cut everybody slack just as you would like
to have slack cutteth unto you. This is the narrow gate.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never even intimated that Jesus needed special DNA. But it was necessary that He come from the line created and kept by God through the ages until the appointed time in order to fulfill the prophecies concerning Him. He must be proven to be the promised son of David and be rejected by the Jews and put to death.

The Jews were a typical people but no longer are for the anti-type is here.

As far as your uncle and Mormons and others that you mention I have no idea what you are talking about.

BTW you didn't answer my questions.

As for the Rom. passage you might notice that I actually quoted it in its context and what Paul says concerning the there being a remnant according to the election of grace.

You have actually rebutted nothing that I have said. Make your arguments against my premises rather than putting words in my mouth and asking questions that I have already answered.

SkyWriting · Aug 4, 2016

twin1954 said:
You are putting words in my mouth. I never even intimated that Jesus needed special DNA. But it was necessary that He come from the line created and kept by God through the ages until the appointed time in order to fulfill the prophecies concerning Him. He must be proven to be the promised son of David and be rejected by the Jews and put to death.

The Jews were a typical people but no longer are for the anti-type is here.

As far as your uncle and Mormons and others that you mention I have no idea what you are talking about.

BTW you didn't answer my questions.

As for the Rom. passage you might notice that I actually quoted it in its context and what Paul says concerning the there being a remnant according to the election of grace.

You have actually rebutted nothing that I have said. Make your arguments against my premises rather than putting words in my mouth and asking questions that I have already answered.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I find no support for your claim
that Jews, as a group are any different than before Jesus. You see
differences, I don't.

Dave-W · Aug 5, 2016

He is Risen 72 said:
They are called Judaizers.

Not really. We understand and accept Acts 15. Do you?

Catherineanne · Aug 5, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
A born again believer has been grafted in. Would they be considered a Jew? Why or why not?

Romans 11:11-24
Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

This is quite a complex question. Clearly the answer from a Jew would be very different from the answer from a Christian.

The short version of the answer, however, is no; Christians are not Jews.

The first generation followers of 'The Way' in Jerusalem were indistinguishable from Jews because were born Jews and they naturally followed Torah. There was very early discussion about whether first generation followers who were formerly pagans ought to be expected to follow Torah as well as The Way, and that discussion is described in Acts. The conclusion was no, they did not need to follow Torah.

For the most part present day Christians do not follow Torah, and are therefore not Jews. The exception are Messianics, who aiui do follow Torah. For more about Messianics, it would be best to ask a Messianic.

I am not Messianic, I am Anglican.

Would a Christian considered a Jew?

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