Works Salvation is False

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2023

John Mullally said:
The meaning of life is to glorify God by creating men and angels to serve as caretakers for His living ways, and in 343 William Lane Craig vs James White – Calvinism vs. Molinism on the Problem of Evil, 10:18-10:43, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk. 274 so doing, to enjoy meaningful fellowship together. Creating a kingdom of sock-puppetted Yes-Men through exhaustive determinism would only amount to mediocrity, since it would not achieve meaningful fellowship, and therefore independent, autonomous libertarian free-will was necessary for God’s creation. God is in control, though not all-controlling, and is able to achieve His objective for humanity, despite the negative use of free-will by some, simply because God is all-powerful, all-wise and allknowing. In other words, God does not need to play both sides of the proverbial Chess Board in order to guarantee victory. Such a prospect literally terrifies Calvinists, but it also reveals that Calvinists don’t truly believe that God is all-powerful, all-wise and all-knowing, and hence needs determinism

Show me that structure in Scripture. Your self-determination is not the same as being "in Christ'. But maybe you know a way you can impress God, and make him admit you have earned it.

By the way, once again, you strawman your way to your hoped-for win, yet somehow your strawman is even too strong for you. Calvinism does not propose sock puppets, but a logical hierarchy of intent —God's being absolute, and ours being in step with every detail that God has determined. Maybe you haven't read the Westminster Confession. The fact that we do precisely as God planned for each one to do no more denies real choice than your own construction. In fact, it ESTABLISHES the reality of choice. But your strawman of sock puppets at least admits to causation, as opposed to the self-contradictory notion of uncaused choice. It is a better argument than yours, even though it is not what Calvinism teaches.

John Mullally · Feb 21, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Show me that structure in Scripture. Your self-determination is not the same as being "in Christ'. But maybe you know a way you can impress God, and make him admit you have earned it.

By the way, once again, you strawman your way to your hoped-for win, yet somehow your strawman is even too strong for you. Calvinism does not propose sock puppets, but a logical hierarchy of intent —God's being absolute, and ours being in step with every detail that God has determined. Maybe you haven't read the Westminster Confession. The fact that we do precisely as God planned for each one to do no more denies real choice than your own construction. In fact, it ESTABLISHES the reality of choice. But your strawman of sock puppets at least admits to causation, as opposed to the self-contradictory notion of uncaused choice. It is a better argument than yours, even though it is not what Calvinism teaches.

Ephesians is addressed to the "faithful in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1) as they are those who are "In Him" in that letters many references. I don't get what you say is my need to impress God. I never have though about impressing God - as such I have never thought of accusing another of the same. I think you have honest motives - grace to you!

Calvinists (as you have done) will often argue (using passages like Romans 9:20-21) that mankind has as much control over how he believes and behaves as a piece of clay has over its own shape, while on the other hand vehemently objecting to their opponent’s accusations of making men into mere puppets.

What more or less responsibility does a puppet have in relation to the puppet master than a lump of clay has in relation to the potter on Calvinism’s interpretation? If you want to interpret Paul’s analogy of the potter and the clay literally to mean that man has no say in how he believes and responds, then own it. Don’t object to other analogies that draw the exact same implications unless you are not willing to live with those implications.

One of the problems for Calvinists is the natural reaction that people often have when hearing of Calvinism for the very first time: “Oh! That would turn us into puppets and robots!” So although Calvinists don’t actually teach that mankind is reduced to being puppets, it is a natural implication, just like how Calvinism’s critics also charge Calvinism with being fatalistic.

As a child, did you ever have a talking doll? It can be a novelty at first, but a child will grow bored of it, since it only says what it’s programmed to say. So, if God programmed all creation in the same way— none of Sproul’s “rogue molecules”—would God have gotten bored of it, in similar fashion, when molecules only do as programmed? Such mediocrity seems beneath God, and I can’t imagine that Jesus would have gone to the Cross for talking dolls. For real people? That might be a different matter.

So if God, according to Calvinism, had decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including every thought, word and deed, then it would seem that the people of Israel are being used as sock-puppets to say: “Now appoint a king for us,” while Samuel is being used as a sock-puppet to express disappointment, with the result that God concludes, in this scenario, “They have forsaken Me.” The teaching that people have freewill would restore the integrity of God so that He is not shown to be a Puppet Master.

Billy Graham: “God created man in His own image and gave him an abundant life. He did not make him as a robot to automatically love and obey Him, but gave him a will and freedom of choice. Man chose to disobey God and go his own willful way. Man still makes this choice today. This results in separation from God.”

Hal Lindsey: “So God did this because He did not want to create robots. You see, He wanted a creature that could respond to Him. But, most of all, He wanted a creature that could respond to His love. Now, there cannot be love without freedom of choice. Unless you can choose not to love, you can’t love.”

Dave Hunt: “Surely love is the most important and most thrilling subject of all--and nothing is so beautiful as God’s love manifest in Jesus Christ. Tragically, Calvinism robs us of what ought to be ‘the greatest story ever told.’ It reduces God’s love to a form of favoritism without passion, and it denies man the capacity of responding from his heart, thereby robbing God of the joy of a genuine response from man and the glory it alone can bring.

Dave Hunt: “The entire history of mankind becomes a puppet show, with God the puppeteer. He looked down upon men and saw that ‘the wickedness of man was great…Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually…. The earth also was corrupt…and…filled with violence’ (Genesis 6:5, 11). This situation ‘grieved [God] at his heart.’ But, if as Calvinism says, God caused every evil thought, word, and deed, why was He grieved? And how could God be grieved if He could have caused those living in Noah’s day to be saints rather than sinners but instead chose to damn them? Yet God is love?

Dave Hunt: “Calvinism treats man as a puppet that God makes willing, yet the Bible gives man credit for having a willing heart as though the willingness were his own. The judgment seat of Christ, His promised rewards, the Great White Throne judgment, and the lake of fire are meaningless if all is of God and nothing is from the heart of man. The many statements about the person being willing from his heart become nonsensical

The new nature that the saints receive in Heaven, which is not to desire sin but only to love and worship God, is as an outworking of their prior choice on earth, in which, while on earth, they freely chose to receive God’s offer of forgiveness and eternal life, so that God would give them the sinless nature that they one day receive in Heaven. The Monergism of Calvinism cannot say that. So to compare the situation in Heaven between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist paradigms is an apples to oranges comparison. There is a significant dissimilarity which eliminates Calvinists from making such a comparison with non-Calvinist theology.

I have not studied the Westminister Confession as I am no Calvinist and it has not been cannonized. Do you have any comments as to 1 Timothy 2:4 that states that God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth? If we do precisely as God desires then per 1 Timothy 2:4 all people would be saved.

rturner76 · Feb 21, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It's not about your works securing your salvation, it's about if you have faith it will be evident in your works. Jesus preaches everywhere about obedience so if you have faith it will be evident in your obedience.

Verses to reference:

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”Proverbs 6:20

If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.Deuteronomy 5:33

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
James 1:22

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12:2

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

Christ was obedient but we don't need to be?

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
1 John 3:21-22

We receive from him anything we want why? Because we keep his commands!

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
James 4:7

You can't work with the devil and think you will still be saved!

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2023

John Mullally said:
The meaning of life is to glorify God by creating men and angels to serve as caretakers for His living ways, and in 343 William Lane Craig vs James White – Calvinism vs. Molinism on the Problem of Evil, 10:18-10:43, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk. 274 so doing, to enjoy meaningful fellowship together. Creating a kingdom of sock-puppetted Yes-Men through exhaustive determinism would only amount to mediocrity, since it would not achieve meaningful fellowship, and therefore independent, autonomous libertarian free-will was necessary for God’s creation. God is in control, though not all-controlling, and is able to achieve His objective for humanity, despite the negative use of free-will by some, simply because God is all-powerful, all-wise and allknowing. In other words, God does not need to play both sides of the proverbial Chess Board in order to guarantee victory. Such a prospect literally terrifies Calvinists, but it also reveals that Calvinists don’t truly believe that God is all-powerful, all-wise and all-knowing, and hence needs determinism

I am curious, btw, how 'such a prospect' literally terrifies Calvinists. This is not a chess game, no chess board. Calvinists, as far as I know, are not afraid of bogus assertions.

But if you want to butt heads over who denies that God is all-powerful, you will have to get a lot less poetic and whole lot more logical, to win the day. You have relegated God to someone who moves at the behest of mere chance.

John Mullally said:
Calvinists will often argue (using passages like Romans 9:20-21) that mankind has as much control over how he believes and behaves as a piece of clay has over its own shape, while on the other hand vehemently objecting to their opponent’s accusations of making men into mere puppets.

I have yet to hear a Calvinist claim that a person has no control over how he behaves.

John Mullally said:
What more or less responsibility does a puppet have in relation to the puppet master than a lump of clay has in relation to the potter on Calvinism’s interpretation? If you want to interpret Paul’s analogy of the potter and the clay literally to mean that man has no say in how he believes and responds, then own it. Don’t object to other analogies that draw the exact same implications unless you are not willing to live with those implications.

Who says man has no say in how be believes and responds? Man has all the say in the world in how he does NOT believe, and will continue to do so until God graciously regenerates him. Subsequent to that, man does have to decide to obey. Man does have to decide to repent, etc etc. There's no programming here, nothing automatic, that happens by itself.

John Mullally said:
One of the problems for Calvinists is the natural reaction that people often have when hearing of Calvinism for the very first time: “Oh! That would turn us into puppets and robots!” So although Calvinists don’t actually teach that mankind is reduced to being puppets, it is a natural implication, just like how Calvinism’s critics also charge Calvinism with being fatalistic.

Yes, it is natural to react that way for people who assume God is like them, and who are by habit self-determining in their mindset.

John Mullally said:
As a child, did you ever have a talking doll? It can be a novelty at first, but a child will grow bored of it, since it only says what it’s programmed to say. So, if God programmed all creation in the same way— none of Sproul’s “rogue molecules”—would God have gotten bored of it, in similar fashion, when molecules only do as programmed? Such mediocrity seems beneath God, and I can’t imagine that Jesus would have gone to the Cross for talking dolls. For real people? That might be a different matter.

Your logic is not only self-deterministic in assumption, but entirely temporally dependent. (Not to mention, as usual, self-contradictory).

John Mullally said:
So if God, according to Calvinism, had decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including every thought, word and deed, then it would seem that the people of Israel are being used as sock-puppets to say: “Now appoint a king for us,” while Samuel is being used as a sock-puppet to express disappointment, with the result that God concludes, in this scenario, “They have forsaken Me.” The teaching that people have freewill would restore the integrity of God so that He is not shown to be a Puppet Master.

It would only 'seem that' to people who insist on self-determination.

John Mullally said:
Billy Graham: “God created man in His own image and gave him an abundant life. He did not make him as a robot to automatically love and obey Him, but gave him a will and freedom of choice. Man chose to disobey God and go his own willful way. Man still makes this choice today. This results in separation from God.”

John Mullally said:
Hal Lindsey: “So God did this because He did not want to create robots. You see, He wanted a creature that could respond to Him. But, most of all, He wanted a creature that could respond to His love. Now, there cannot be love without freedom of choice. Unless you can choose not to love, you can’t love.”

John Mullally said:
Dave Hunt: “Surely love is the most important and most thrilling subject of all--and nothing is so beautiful as God’s love manifest in Jesus Christ. Tragically, Calvinism robs us of what ought to be ‘the greatest story ever told.’ It reduces God’s love to a form of favoritism without passion, and it denies man the capacity of responding from his heart, thereby robbing God of the joy of a genuine response from man and the glory it alone can bring.

John Mullally said:
Dave Hunt: “The entire history of mankind becomes a puppet show, with God the puppeteer. He looked down upon men and saw that ‘the wickedness of man was great…Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually…. The earth also was corrupt…and…filled with violence’ (Genesis 6:5, 11). This situation ‘grieved [God] at his heart.’ But, if as Calvinism says, God caused every evil thought, word, and deed, why was He grieved? And how could God be grieved if He could have caused those living in Noah’s day to be saints rather than sinners but instead chose to damn them? Yet God is love?

John Mullally said:
Dave Hunt: “Calvinism treats man as a puppet that God makes willing, yet the Bible gives man credit for having a willing heart as though the willingness were his own. The judgment seat of Christ, His promised rewards, the Great White Throne judgment, and the lake of fire are meaningless if all is of God and nothing is from the heart of man. The many statements about the person being willing from his heart become nonsensical

If Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are your theological references, you need to regroup. Not only do they misrepresent Calvinism, but their man-exalting humanly-derived theology is bogus. They both, like you, see God as only superhuman. Billy Graham, on the other hand, doesn't say anything there that Calvinism disagrees with, though he did not say what else results in separation from God.

John Mullally said:
The new nature that the saints receive in Heaven, which is not to desire sin but only to love and worship God, is as an outworking of their prior choice on earth, in which, while on earth, they freely chose to receive God’s offer of forgiveness and eternal life, so that God would give them the sinless nature that they one day receive in Heaven. The Monergism of Calvinism cannot say that. So to compare the situation in Heaven between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist paradigms is an apples to oranges comparison. There is a significant dissimilarity which eliminates Calvinists from making such a comparison with non-Calvinist theology.

Where is your scripture reference to back up that what the Elect are in Heaven is an outworking of their prior choices on earth, due to the fact that their choices that were made by their own uncaused free will? Are you merely assuming?

John Mullally said:
I have not studied the Westminister Confession as I am no Calvinist and it has not been cannonized. Do you have any comments as to 1 Timothy 2:4 that states that God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth? If we do precisely as God desires then per 1 Timothy 2:4 all people would be saved.

My reason for mentioning the Westminster Confession is that you had decided what Calvinism teaches, and I wanted you to see different.

John Mullally · Feb 21, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Who says man has no say in how be believes and responds? Man has all the say in the world in how he does NOT believe, and will continue to do so until God graciously regenerates him. Subsequent to that, man does have to decide to obey. Man does have to decide to repent, etc etc. There's no programming here, nothing automatic, that happens by itself.

I have a hard time following. But Ezekiel 18:30-32 indicates that man can repent without God first changing his nature - so much for the lie of Calvinist Total Depravity! If you don't agree, please parse Ezekiel 18:30-32.

Mark Quayle said:
John Mullally said:
If Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are your theological references, you need to regroup. Not only do they misrepresent Calvinism, but their man-exalting humanly-derived theology is bogus. They both, like you, see God as only superhuman. Billy Graham, on the other hand, doesn't say anything there that Calvinism disagrees with, though he did not say what else results in separation from God.

Calvin (your mentor) disposes many before birth to eternal torment.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

I did not say that Hal Lindsey or Dave Hunt represent Calvinism - they contront Calvinism as does scripture. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth,which confronts Calvinism, I cannot follow your assertion that I and others see God as meerly super-human. I don't put words in your mouth.

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2023

John Mullally said:
If you don't agree, please parse Ezekiel 18:30-32.

It is not talking about salvation, but about law and punishment. But, since apparently you disagree (since obviously you use it as though it was about salvation), the supposedly saved [supposedly elect] who do not repent will be judged accordingly. The elect WILL repent, and that, NOT automatically, but by their own free will, preferring to do so. And even then, sometimes, being motivated by a plea, or by the Spirit of God, or by other influences. (*gasp* dare I say influences in the context of freewill?)

John Mullally · Feb 21, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
It is not talking about salvation, but about law and punishment. But, since apparently you disagree (since obviously you use it as though it was about salvation), the supposedly saved [supposedly elect] who do not repent will be judged accordingly. The elect WILL repent, and that, NOT automatically, but by their own free will, preferring to do so. And even then, sometimes, being motivated by a plea, or by the Spirit of God, or by other influences. (*gasp* dare I say influences in the context of freewill?)

The passage indicates that OT Jews can repent before God changes their heart and spirit. The fact that man can repent (all be it in the OT) before God changing man's nature (i.e. giving him a new heart and new spirit) disproves Calvinist Total Depravity.

God desires all people to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:4. Yes Gasp that you should actually believe that!

John Mullally · Feb 21, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I am curious, btw, how 'such a prospect' literally terrifies Calvinists. This is not a chess game, no chess board. Calvinists, as far as I know, are not afraid of bogus assertions.

Tragically, many Calvinists hold 1 Timothy 2:4 to be a bogus assertion.

The problem with Calvinism is that it encourages people to place their faith in something they must suppose, such as supposing oneself to be elect, rather than in placing one’s faith in something they can know, such as knowing that God will keep His promise to save whosoever believes in Him. Thankfully, Spurgeon concluded with the correct basis for true assurance: “Let your hope rest on the cross of Christ. Think not on election but on Christ Jesus. Rest on Jesus—Jesus first, midst, and without end.” Indeed. Assurance must not rest on the presumption to a secret election, but instead, assurance must rest on the promise of God to keep His Word for all who believe in His Son. So, as a non-Calvinist, I don’t need to guess or suppose whether God wishes to save me, personally, since if Jesus died for all, then I can know for certain that He died for me, because I am a part of the all for whom He died. In other words, I can know that God wants to save me, personally, because He provided the means for the salvation of everyone through the Cross, so that anyone in the world who believes in Him will be saved.

Mark Quayle · Feb 22, 2023

John Mullally said:
Tragically, many Calvinists hold 1 Timothy 2:4 to be a bogus assertion.

Tragically, many anti-Calvinists repeatedly misrepresent Calvinists.

fhansen · Feb 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Now look who's bringing an either /or into it. You think it has to be either Adam who willed to sin, or God that decreed that Adam sin.

Well, someone done it. But in line with our conversation on this matter:
Both/and=God and man=salvation. Union/fellowship with God is our salvation, and the font of our righteousnsess.
Either/or=God alone=no salvation. As Augustine put it "He who made you without your consent will not save you without your consent." God doesn't force or cause us to open the door.
Either/or=Man alone=Pelagiansim, no grace needed=no salvation. Adam opted for "man alone" and God didn't prevent him from doing it, nor did He immediatley save/redeem/regenerate him after the Fall. Because man-humankind-needed time away from the Father in order to, hopefully, develop an appreciation for Him, a hunger and thirst for righteousness and truth and goodness in a world that ends up far from those things, to the extent that we're far from God.

Mark Quayle said:
God is FIRST CAUSE. OMNIPOTENT. He is not us. He is no fool, to make something not knowing what will happen —he made it INTENDING that it happen. And we freely will to do precisely what he planned. Nothing insane about that. What lacks sanity is to think that anything but first cause is absolutely spontaneous, uncaused.

God made everything so that everything that exists is caused by Him. But everything God created is good, and evil is a detraction from or a lessening of that goodness, so evil has no reality of its own; its "existence" is only relative to the goodness which it decreases. So evil, moral evil, can only exist by the abuse of another God-given good, that of free will, and not by His own causation. He allows evil; He does not cause it. And He foreknew every choice, good or bad or indifferent, that would be made in this world and deemed it good to create this world, knowing that, at the end of the day, He would bring an even greater good out of the evil that He allowed to prevail here, for a time. So the church, which has struggled with this same issue for centuries. came down thusly on this matter:

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

fhansen · Feb 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
GOD's victory is guaranteed. Not mine, except it be in him. That is a straight answer. You want one that fits self-determinism.

Both/and; He doesn't do it without us. He could, but doesn't, according to His wisdom as He, like a good parent, wants us to be responsible, to want and to own the righteousness, the love, to the greatest and highest extent possible, that flows from Him as its source.

fhansen · Feb 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
The mocking misrepresentation that I referred to was to make as though I did not believe "We can-and certainly should-ask Him for [wisdom]", and you are doing it again now, as though you never even read what I said.

That's not what you objected to. I said,
"This is an almost embarrassingly self-serving attempt at a response. God directs us to seek wisdom and then having wisdom becomes glory robbing from Him. Sure. Of course. And, oh yes, Clare has it anyway. I wish she did. I seek no glory for myself, only the wisdom to know and defend the true gospel. And I do. I hate to see it subverted by a lack of wisdom, stemming from the Reformation.

You responded,
"No. The glory robbing is to claim wisdom is to be found in your posts, even if you are half serious in saying it. And I don't appreciate the mocking misrepresentation of what I said."

In that same post you referenced a verse about asking God for wisdom, and I read it and actually appreciated it but the problem is that, even though you acknowledge this truth, you reject it where you disagree with one person and accept it where you agree with another. Wisdom comes from grace? What else is new? I don't apologize for being on the receiving end of a bit of it. I've sought it. And you guys still won't do your homework, to study Church history.

So can/does God grant wisdom, or not? If a person has, or claims to have, or is reported to have, wisdom is that necessarily glory-robbing from God? Or can that be glorfying to God? Can a person love? Or does that somehow challenge or detract from God's love? I think God wants us to love...and to be wise, and to forgive, and to imitate and express Himelf, by His grace, to the greatest extent possible.

Mark Quayle said:
But it's amazing how a supposedly humble servant of the Lord can claim to be without error in his many posts.

I don't claim to be error-free, only that I know the gospel and explain it accurately.

fhansen · Feb 23, 2023

Clare73 said:
#2 -- I see, the translators you prefer also happen to be the precise ones.

At least I acknowledged there can be more than one meaning, more than one plausible translation.

Clare73 said:
Did #3 miss what #2 stated?

Clare, you're making stuff up as you go along, changing the meaning of words as you see fit. Dikaioi is not "a form of dikaiosis". It's directly related to the word dikaios which means, simply according to all concordances, lexicons, Greek dictionaries et al, right or just, fair, etc. Dikaioi means the same but often refers to a person who is right or just. Dikaiosis is a form, or, more correctly, a cognate, of dikaios, with its suffix modifying the meaning. Anyway, your numbering system seems to fit your character far better than mine.

So, again, we can quite easily see how Romans 5 explains clearly and simply, consistent with all of Romans, how justification works.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:17-19

Believers are given the gift of righteousness. Just as the act of Adam caused all to be unrighteous (not merely declared or imputed to be unrighteouss), so the act of Jesus Christ causes the many to be righteous (dikaioi katastathēsontai), likewise not merely declared or imputed to be righteous. So, going by what we learned now we can easily see why virtually every concordance or lexicon translates these two words as, simply, "will be made right". They don't allow for any other meaning.

Clare73 · Feb 23, 2023

fhansen said:
At least I acknowledged there can be more than one meaning, more than one plausible translation.

Clare, you're making stuff up as you go along,

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black

fhansen said:
changing the meaning of words as you see fit. Dikaioi is not "a form of dikaiosis".

Previously addressed. . .

fhansen said:
It's directly related to the word dikaios which means, simply according to all concordances, lexicons, Greek dictionaries et al, right or just, fair, etc. Dikaioi means the same but often refers to a person who is right or just. Dikaiosis is a form, or, more correctly, a cognate, of dikaios, with its suffix modifying the meaning. Anyway, your numbering system seems to fit your character far better than mine.

So, again, we can quite easily see how Romans 5 explains clearly and simply, consistent with all of Romans, how justification works.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:17-19

Believers are given the gift of righteousness. Just as the act of Adam caused all to be unrighteous (not merely declared or imputed to be unrighteouss), so the act of Jesus Christ causes the many to be righteous (dikaioi katastathēsontai), likewise not merely declared or imputed to be righteous. So, going by what we learned now we can easily see why virtually every concordance or lexicon translates these two words as, simply, "will be made right". They don't allow for any other meaning.

fhansen · Feb 23, 2023

Clare73 said:
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black

Ok. Hadn’t heard you acknowledge the same, but ok.

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed. . .

Yep.

Clare73 · Feb 23, 2023

fhansen said:
Ok. Hadn’t heard you acknowledge the same, but ok.

As is the same here. . .

fhansen said:
Yep.

So maybe there's no reason to keep re-presenting it. . .

fhansen · Feb 23, 2023

Clare73 said:
As is the same here. . .

Oh, its there, but like I said everyone should do their own homework.

Clare73 said:
So maybe there's no reason to keep re-presenting it.

Yep, that's about where I'm at with it too.

Clare73 · Feb 23, 2023

fhansen said:
Oh, its there,

Can't find your acknowledgement of same regarding yourself, you'll have to point it out.

fhansen said:
but like I said everyone should do their own homework.

Agreed. . .

fhansen said:
Yep, that's about where I'm at with it too.

Good to hear. . .

fhansen · Feb 23, 2023

Clare73 said:
Agreed. . .

Good to hear.

Clare73 said:
Good to hear. . .

I bet...

Clare73 · Feb 23, 2023

Clare73 said:
Agreed. . .

Good to hear. . .

fhansen said:
I bet...

I'll lay you eight to five on that one.

And can't find your asserted acknowledgement of "pot" as yourself, you'll have to point it out.

Works Salvation is False

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Domine non-sum dignus

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Oldbie

Oldbie

Oldbie

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency