Works Required to Prove Faith

saintboniface said:

How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?

Suppose a married man is on fire for the Lord. He spends much of his time spreading the gospel, serving the poor, and generally being a good Christian. Then he starts having an affair. He simultaneously loves the Lord but also gives into the desires of the flesh. He says he still believes Jesus is the savior and he truly does believe Jesus is the savior. He just can't pass up the huge temptation. Does he have true saving faith or not? He thinks he does - do you think so?

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1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

ToBeBlessed said:

Who would we be 'proving' our faith to? Jesus already knows our hearts and knows all about us, He knows us better than we know ourselves.

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Most of the debate comes from James 2, with other verses added on in support of that.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.

But let's put this back into its context. What has James been talking about when he writes this particular phrase? He has been talking about?

But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
....
If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it?

James has been talking about doing good work, and in this he's really only echoing Paul:

For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—-not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. -- Ephesians 2

James and Paul agree, the saved should be doing good works. But James is arguing against those who make a mistake similar to that of the Corinthians in their erroneous presumptions about freedom from the Law. "We don't have to do anything for anyone...we have faith." Like the Corinthians were proud of their tolerance, these people are proud of doing no good works.

"He knows us better than we know ourselves" that might be an assumption.. then why does he tell some people
" I never knew you "?
. maybe life and death are miles/ millennia/ forever apart , as far as east is from the west.. and he has no right be in / at / inside of death/ that void place man created where there is no God and cowards and fearful go to hide in their sins.
especially once he was living again.

I don't think he knows them or us until we make make our selves known and available to be searched ( like David said to him search me know my ways .....) and known and unconditionally..and we don't start there do we? we should but we don't ..... because we just say a special prayer and start making assumptions.

so what if this house we live in is our space...( if a demon goes out of a man )
that is the option Adam took to be come disconnected from him..legally a sovereign entity.
so what if he has no rights unless we first give him legal rights to us .
that is what free will means is it ?
so maybe he can't know us until we give him legal / committed / betrothed / right to know us.

and I for sure know we don't know ourselves.. so do you know what you will do until you do it ?
do you give him right to do with you what you don't know what he is going to do , or are our knowledge of ourselves and him and our commitments still conditional?

NannaNae said:

"He knows us better than we know ourselves" that might be an assumption.. then why does he tell some people
" I never knew you "?
. maybe life and death are miles/ millennia/ forever apart , as far as east is from the west.. and he has no right be in / at / inside of death/ that void place man created where there is no God and cowards and fearful go to hide in their sins.
especially once he was living again.

I don't think he knows them or us until we make make our selves known and available to be searched ( like David said to him ) and known..

so what if this house we live in is our space...( if a demon goes out of a man )
that is the option Adam took to be come disconnected from him..legally a sovereign entity.
so what if he has no rights unless we first give him legal rights to us .
that is what free will means is it ?
so maybe he can't know us until we give him legal / committed / betrothed / right to know us.

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139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.

19 O that You would slay the wicked, O God;
Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.

are you saying he lied ?


Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

if they are working iniquity , he says he doesn't know them, ( so where ever it is they work iniquity it isn't where he is )

Mat 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye( HE?) shall know them.

Mat 7:21
¶
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

NannaNae said:

are you saying he lied ?

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

if they are working iniquity , he says he doesn't know them, ( so where ever it is they work iniquity it isn't where he is )

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If you think so. That is, if you refuse to believe Psalm 139.

NO both things are true!
Jesus said that himself!

it is up to us to figure out why and how both are true.
the bible never lies..
I tried to explain how he showed it to me...
I suspect the only option now is for him to explain it to you and the OP'er just how you will need to understand it.
sorry I can't explain it like he does! I am just not as good at allegorical type pictures that speak a million words..

but understand it is the answer to the OP questions..

I guess you and he will have to fight it out with God himself until he understands HIM because both things are true, how it is the issue God has to explain..

but some fear definitions of sin more than they fear sinning. so it is probably best to get your definitions from God and his word. i'm done! but maybe in the mean time everyone should stop asking humans to explain it then hump their leg for trying to defining it.

I think the truth of the matter is that there are various definitions of the word "know". One can easily prove that God knows everything (he is omniscient). He counts the number of hairs on our head. He knows each of the billions of stars in the universe. There is absolutely nothing He does not know.

On the other hand, if "know" is used in the sense of having a personal relationship with another person, as in I know President Obama, then God does not know everyone. He knows His sheep and calls them all by name (John 10) but does not know those who are not His sheep.

Oh so sin does cause a separation !
on going sin
causes on going separation.

we are all born sinners !
the good news is that by faith HE can now be OUR LORD( jesus?) and we are then NOT SUBJECTS of the Lords of death and sins .
if we are sinning this releases death( sewage into our living water )filth into our world , an ongoing separation from at the very least God(father ? then jesus ) and them Knowing us.

that we know by his love that he gives clean water to drink and good food to eat and not sewer water and rotten fruit then demand others drink it what they pooped up .

now man poops in the water and demands others drink it ( if they really love them they tell us , over and over ) .
then demands God forgive them for pooping in His pure water and demands a new glass to poop in .
even one drop of sewer makes pure water undrinkable.
all I am saying is, they will drink what they poop into.
and no one else has to !
now God may ask us to stand by them when they are chuggin.. but they are going to drink all of it.

so the word of the hour is to be careful where we poop and make sure it is in a God approved place and time ( Elijah at brook cherenth (sp?)) so he will help us clean up the mess like he helped Elijah who went into overload

NannaNae said:

Oh so sin does cause a separation !
on going sin
causes on going separation.

we are all born sinners !
the good news is that by faith HE can now be OUR LORD( jesus?) and we are then NOT SUBJECTS of the Lords of death and sins .
if we are sinning this releases death( sewage into our living water )filth into our world , an ongoing separation from at the very least God(father ? then jesus ) and them Knowing us.

that we know by his love that he gives clean water to drink and good food to eat and not sewer water and rotten fruit then demand others drink it what they pooped up .

now man poops in the water and demands others drink it ( if they really love them they tell us , over and over ) .
then demands God forgive them for pooping in His pure water and demands a new glass to poop in .
even one drop of sewer makes pure water undrinkable.
all I am saying is, they will drink what they poop into.
and no one else has to !
now God may ask us to stand by them when they are chuggin.. but they are going to drink all of it.

so the word of the hour is to be careful where we poop and make sure it is in a God approved place and time ( Elijah at brook cherenth (sp?)) so he will help us clean up the mess like he helped Elijah who went into overload

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So, who among us can claim, in truth, to be actually pure and free from sin (thereby making God a liar (I John 10))?

bbbbbbb said:

So, who among us can claim, in truth, to be actually pure and free from sin (thereby making God a liar (I John 10))?

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all of us are born into sin . but none of us has right to be sinning in or a state of sinning = defilement . and whatever sinning we do we better be prepared to be chugging our own poop water..
because he won't let anyone else drink it and you can't go on until you do. thus the separation.

Love is and faith is give ONLY what we were given by him to others... pure water and good fruits.

by making "a blanket statement like .....'God knows my heart" and like "we are all sinners". it is giving ourselves license to force others to drink our defiling water.. " well because 'he made me this way' and' He knows how I am'.
no he don't know you that way. and he won't know you that way until you first admit it was defiling and then except that you must be changed and then go about following him to a place where drinking down your own defilements until your flesh is sure it is going to" just die" is done . then you learned something valuable that day! you learned even one drop of sewer makes living water undrinkable.

NannaNae said:

all of us are born into sin . but none of us has right to be sinning in or a state of sinning = defilement . and whatever sinning we do we better be prepared to be chugging our own poop water..
because he won't let anyone else drink it and you can't go on until you do. thus the separation.

Love is and faith is give ONLY what we were given by him to others... pure water and good fruits.

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When was the last time you sinned? Can you honestly say that you have loved your neighbor as yourself all of the time and in every circumstance?

bbbbbbb said:

When was the last time you sinned? Can you honestly say that you have loved your neighbor as yourself all of the time and in every circumstance?

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to love don't mean you have to like them.... love means you are a pure vessel when he wants to love them through you.

so I am not going to tell you this to make my self look this way or that in your ryes.. but as an example of what his love looks like when you have hate and filth mongering neighbors to love.

so wow my last neighbor was a perv and hung around little kids camp corrupting them and defiling them. and honestly I personally loved his victim more than him and prayed that someone would find the proof and tell the authorities on him.
I didn't like him at all... I did pray endlessly for him for his real salvation and his turning from what ever it was he was into.. and I forgave him when he killed three of my Great Pyrenees dogs and all his whining and gossiping about us. I do feel bad for him he is a very sad individual. and when we learned our neighbor was sick we/ my husband went and bought his meds.
but no we don't " like defilers" we don't have to .. we have to be the vessels of his love how he asks us to be, when he asks us to be.



our neighbor before , Now he with a shot gun with tiny bird shot , shot 10 of my kids very expensive registered dairy goats at the time when they got into his pasture , my daughter 10 , daughter's favorite alpine dairy Goat was still alive and when she found her doe alive and crying for her.. but with it's brains coming out of it's eye socket she started trying to put her doe out of it's misery all herself by choking it with her own two hands , but she wasn't strong enough, she instead started screaming at God to take her doeling.. my son and my daughter both lost about 5 doelings each that day ..

the neighbor was a twisted old fart and got thrills by telling filthy jokes and horrible raunchy language to everyone in front of their kids just to see the parents reaction.

but that day he begged for forgiveness from us and our kids. if for no other reason than he knew if we took him to court he would have owned us in the neighborhood of 10,000 dollars.. because the doelings were worth about 500 each and the value of killing them in a court is usually around 2 1/2 x times their value.

but as soon as it happened God made sure to let us know, actually it was the kids who both said "we have to forgive him.." first I think it was even the days of AWE so we knew this wasn't about us ..... so our only next step was forgiveness , which we did in prayer before the Lord at that moment.. so we had already forgave him as a family before he asked forgiveness ..
that day he excepted Jesus and Started praying and going to his brothers church ..
three years later he died of cancer a wonderful and completely changed man.

so we OR HE loses some and we wins some!
but that isn't about us now at all , we only have to do what he asks of us when he asks it of us . he gives the strength and will to do his will...
we are not the source of LOVE he is and we are just to be a vessel for his to give others pure water and good fruit if we are asked too. are we sin, yes
but we are not sinning anymore and if we do get ( sin/ fearful etc ) we go to a place where no one else is( like brook cherenth ) to deal with it with God. that is our only right.

do you see this story isn't about us in anyway shape or form , it is about Him and allowing him to love others through our lives. some he wins some he doesn't win at least not yet.. but it is not about US or our great love for our neighbors , but loving him and but then allowing his LOVE and his kingdom to love those neighbors when he wanted to, how he wanted too.


but man still has free will, we do and they do.

NannaNae said:

by making "a blanket statement like .....'God knows my heart" and like "we are all sinners". it is giving ourselves license to force others to drink our defiling water.. " well because 'he made me this way' and' He knows how I am'.

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It doesn't mean that at all. These are comments about our condition, not an excuse for it or some sort of justification of it.

no he don't know you that way. and he won't know you that way until you first admit it was defiling and then except that you must be changed and then go about following him to a place where drinking down your own defilements until your flesh is sure it is going to" just die" is done .

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Here's what you are missing--

It's important to strive to avoid sin, but the idea that we can be sinless, when the Bible teaches that even the just man falls seven times a day--is both vain and mistaken. We are fragile creatures who do sin, even the best among us. Believers can be expected not to DELIBERATELY sin or engage in patterns of behavior that are sinful but, as bbbbbbb pointed out, it is simply wrong to think that we have achieved perfection in this life when sin is any falling short of the standards of God.

It doesn't take engaging prostitutes or stealing from your employer to be guilty of sinning; ANY FALLING SHORT of the ideal is sin, and we all do that, whether we admit it or not.

you keep using sinless...

I use sinning..
I am a sinner with no right to be sinning against others.

NannaNae said:

all of us are born into sin . but none of us has right to be sinning in or a state of sinning = defilement . and whatever sinning we do we better be prepared to be chugging our own poop water..
because he won't let anyone else drink it and you can't go on until you do. thus the separation.

Love is and faith is give ONLY what we were given by him to others... pure water and good fruits.

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That is judging others based on the standard that you have set for yourself. Each person is different and therefore grows in Christ at their own pace, convicted by the Holy Spirit.

We need to leave the conviction to the one who convicts in perfection and is just in doing.

To say "no one has the right to be sinning in or a state of sinning" that is not right as we are all sinners.

ToBeBlessed said:

That is judging others based on the standard that you have set for yourself. Each person is different and therefore grows in Christ at their own pace, convicted by the Holy Spirit.

We need to leave the conviction to the one who convicts in perfection and is just in doing.

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the OP asked for a definition if you don't like mine sorry!
i'm done.

NannaNae said:

you keep using sinless...

I use sinning..
I am a sinner with no right to be sinning against others.

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All right. Let's clear this up if we can. When I read you saying this--

all of us are born into sin . but none of us has right to be sinning in or a state of sinning = defilement

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I think you are saying that the true Christian will not sin--not that he won't deliberately and continually sin but that he won't sin, period.

Is that a correct reading of your meaning or not?