works based salvation

pescador · Apr 18, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Come on mate, you know what she means, a Hebrew bible for english speakers is useless for them.

Unless they can read Hebrew!

Dorothy Mae · Apr 19, 2020

pescador said:
I'm glad that you're not into exaggeration! Most believers of all faiths understand YHWH, pronounced "yah-weh".

Clearly that is NOT what God says to Moses but is made up. A 1000000 people saying it won’t change what Moses heard that day.

Your last sentence is very strange! Rending the book completely useless? If you've ever read the Bible in Hebrew you wouldn't say something so obviously wrong.

I would dare you to bring a round of Hebrew Bibles written in Hebrew and distribute them to everyone present in a normal US church service and see how many understand every word or any word.

I am confident everyone who didn’t learn Hebrew would say it is like gibberish. The paper and ink aren’t magical.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 19, 2020

pescador said:
Unless they can read Hebrew!

The Jews in Jesus’ day read Hebrew thoroughly and didn’t understand it, most of them. They didn’t even recognize the Messiah!!!

pescador · Apr 19, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
The Jews in Jesus’ day read Hebrew thoroughly and didn’t understand it, most of them. They didn’t even recognize the Messiah!!!

Do you really think that the Jews in Jesus’ day read Hebrew thoroughly and didn’t understand it, most of them. Really? What is your evidence of such a strange statement?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 19, 2020

pescador said:
Do you really think that the Jews in Jesus’ day read Hebrew thoroughly and didn’t understand it, most of them. Really?

Did they recognize the Messiah?? That’s the pivotal point of the whole book!!

What is your evidence of such a strange statement?

They didn’t know the Messiah when he stood before them point blank. Pretty big miss. If they don’t understand the Messiah when present, what do they know?

pescador · Apr 19, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Did they recognize the Messiah?? That’s the pivotal point of the whole book!!
They didn’t know the Messiah when he stood before them point blank. Pretty big miss. If they don’t understand the Messiah when present, what do they know?

a) What does your first statement have to do with the Jews reading Hebrew?
b) Are you saying that the Jews "didn’t know the Messiah when he stood before them point blank". That condemnation is simply not true. Many Jews, from his disciples to the general population, believed in Jesus. If that wasn't the case how would there have been Christianity?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 19, 2020

pescador said:
a) What does your first statement have to do with the Jews reading Hebrew?

There are people who read a communication in their own mother tongue but still don’t understand it. Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept?

b) Are you saying that the Jews "didn’t know the Messiah when he stood before them point blank". That condemnation is simply not true.

. Why did they say he wasn’t their king to Pilot? Why did they deliver him up and insist he be crucified?? Why is this so difficult to accept? His own didn’t receive him, do you deny it?

Many Jews, from his disciples to the general population, believed in Jesus.

The majority did not. They did not understand the Hebrew scriptures which was my point.

If that wasn't the case how would there have been Christianity?

Some believed, true. They understood. But that doesn’t change the fact that many read the Hebrew scriptures in Hebrew, a language they spoke fluently, and didn’t understand. Using YHWH is using a word that convey no meaning whatsoever. “Lord” carries meaning. YHWH does not.

pescador · Apr 19, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
There are people who read a communication in their own mother tongue but still don’t understand it. Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept? . Why did they say he wasn’t their king to Pilot? Why did they deliver him up and insist he be crucified?? Why is this so difficult to accept? His own didn’t receive him, do you deny it? The majority did not. They did not understand the Hebrew scriptures which was my point.
Some believed, true. They understood. But that doesn’t change the fact that many read the Hebrew scriptures in Hebrew, a language they spoke fluently, and didn’t understand. Using YHWH is using a word that convey no meaning whatsoever. “Lord” carries meaning. YHWH does not.

Since I don't follow your logic I will not continue this conversation. 1) Read your Bible and 2) stop condemning Jesus' people: himself, his disciples, and the rest who believed him.

Anti-Semitism is nothing to be proud of!

Dorothy Mae · Apr 19, 2020

pescador said:
Since I don't follow your logic I will not continue this conversation. 1) Read your Bible and 2) stop condemning Jesus' people: himself, his disciples, and the rest who believed him.

Anti-Semitism is nothing to be proud of!

Woah! Take out the big guns in insults revealing you haven’t read the Bible all because you can’t admit you’re wrong.

First I quoted the bible but you obviously don’t know it well. It says “he came to his own and his own received him not.” This you failed to recognize as the Bible but thought I said it cause I’m a bigot.

Second, I again used the Bible when I quoted that the Jews “delivered him up to be crucified” and you thought I said it cause I’m an aweful person.

Pes, you don’t know the Bible well.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 20, 2020

pescador said:
Since I don't follow your logic I will not continue this conversation. 1) Read your Bible and 2) stop condemning Jesus' people: himself, his disciples, and the rest who believed him.

Anti-Semitism is nothing to be proud of!

Pescador, I wrote you in my mother tongue and you read it in your mother tongue and still you don’t understand it and even admit not understanding a communication in a language we both know.

Maybe now you can see how the Jews read their scriptures in Hebrew but didn’t understand them.

packermann · Apr 20, 2020

klutedavid said:
Hello Packerman.

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> not by your works -> created new in Christ Jesus -> for good works.

This slight correction puts the GIFT of salvation into God's hands alone.You have that in reverse.

My simplified formula was

grace -> through faith ->works.

You are reading into it that I do not put the gift of salvation into God's hands alone. I most definitely do, as the Catholic Church teaches. I think you need to read primary Catholic sources on what the Church teaches on our gift of salvation and not what some Protestant teachers say that we Catholics believe.

Here are some quotes by official Catholic documents:

1. If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

2. If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent

Unlike our Protestant brothers and sisters, the Catholic Church teaches that many of the truths are mysteries, paradoxes. A Paradox is something that seems to be a contradictory but is not - God is one and yet three, Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, salvation is totally a gift of God and yet we must work for our salvation. We are finite and God is infinite. We cannot fully understand the ways of God.

Protestants do not feel comfortable with paradoxes (I know this because I used to be one for 15 years. I was even a Baptist minister. I know I was not comfortable with paradoxes. Now I am.). Protestants see things as black and white. So either salvation is a totally gift or we work for our salvation. But if you read the Catholic documents, you will see that the Catholic Church teaches that both are true. And that does not mean that the Church teaches that salvation only partly a gift and partly our works. No, it is FULLY a gift from God and yet we must still work for our salvation.

One of the most paradoxical aspects of the spiritual life is the tension between human effort and Divine generosity...
Confusion arises because we are quite clearly told in scripture that we must do certain things. We must forgive or we will not be forgiven. We must love our neighbor as ourselves. We must turn the other cheek. We must strive to enter the narrow gate. We must crucify the flesh and its lusts. The list goes on. And yet simultaneously, we are just as clearly told that salvation is a gift of Divine origin, one which we have done nothing and can do nothing to merit. The same St. Paul who tells us to mortify ourselves also declares that, “It is by grace that you are saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

So which is it? Are we saved by spiritual struggle and mortifying ourselves, or by an entirely unmerited gift? Are we saved by God’s action or our action?

The simple answer is both. Catholic truths are often found in the rather uncomfortable coming together of opposites. They are paradoxes—divine puns, if you will—that are ultimately shrouded in mystery. Simple either-or binaries would be much more accessible and amenable to our limited intellects, and yet our capacity for wonder at the works of God would shrink with our ability to comprehend them. Mystery is healthier for humility.

Works, Faith, and the Paradox of Grace

Albion · Apr 20, 2020

Let's simplify the matter even further and get down to the real difference. No mystery, no flow charts, no paradoxes used however it suits us. Just the facts.

Everyone basically agrees to God permitting or enabling whatever the believer does. The question is "What is the 'thing' that renders the individual meritorious in God's eyes?"

Catholic churches' answer--Faith in Christ plus good works performed by that person. Two factors.

Protestant churches' answer--Faith in Christ.

The individual will (must) perform good works because that is an inevitable consequence of Faith, but those works do NOT add merit, thus increasing our chances of being saved.

packermann · Apr 20, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I would say such a person still has grace because he is still able to repent but he will not be justified because he is not abiding in Christ.

I agree, but technically I would say that he no longer has saving grace but still still could have the prevenient grace to move him to repent.

packermann · Apr 20, 2020

pescador said:
That is fallacious reasoning. Suppose one is unable to do "good works", such as someone in a nursing home? Does that mean that they don't have the grace of GOD?

Even prayer is a good work. So even a person in a nursing home can do that!

FYI, God's grace is given without condition to all who believe in Him. It is not earned!

Since God's grace is given only to those who believe in Him, then it cannot be unconditional - it is at least conditioned upon us believing in Him.

pescador · Apr 20, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Woah! Take out the big guns in insults revealing you haven’t read the Bible all because you can’t admit you’re wrong.

First I quoted the bible but you obviously don’t know it well. It says “he came to his own and his own received him not.” This you failed to recognize as the Bible but thought I said it cause I’m a bigot.

Second, I again used the Bible when I quoted that the Jews “delivered him up to be crucified” and you thought I said it cause I’m an aweful person.

Pes, you don’t know the Bible well.

Your post was clearly anti-Semitic. Jesus, the twelve disciples, Paul, and many,many others were all -- ready? -- Jews.

I have read and continue to read, not just one Bible, but several. You clearly take verses out of context to justify your anti-Semitism. John 1:1-12 says, "He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to his own and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God" If you read this properly, it says that the entire world, not just the Jews, did not accept Him as the Messiah, but to those who did accept Him, He gave the right to become children of God."

You undoubtedly know that until Paul went to the Gentiles throughout the Mediterranean, all Jesus' followers were Jews. Or you probably don't admit that because of your mistaken attitude toward the Jewish people.

Never, ever forget that Jesus, a.k.a. Yeshua, was a practicing Jew when he was alive on Earth. If you reject the Jews, you are also rejecting Him.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 20, 2020

pescador said:
Your post was clearly anti-Semitic. Jesus, the twelve disciples, Paul, and many,many others were all -- ready? -- Jews.

Nonsense. I quoted the Bible verbatim.

I have read and continue to read, not just one Bible, but several. You clearly take verses out of context to justify your anti-Semitism.

Lets test your knowledge:

Who delivered Jesus up to be crucified?

A. The Romans
B. The Italians
c. The Jews
D. The Calvinists

1:1-12 says, "He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to his own and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God" If you read this properly, it says that the entire world, not just the Jews, did not accept Him as the Messiah, but to those who did accept Him, He gave the right to become children of God."

Let’s try this again.
Who was living in Palestine ca. 30AD?

A. The Palestinians
B. The Jews and some Romans stationed there.
C. The Calvinists
D. The KKK

You undoubtedly know that until Paul went to the Gentiles throughout the Mediterranean, all Jesus' followers were Jews. Or you probably don't admit that because of your mistaken attitude toward the Jewish people.

This is fun.

Who first preachedto the Gentiles?

A. Peter
B. Paul
C. Jesus

Never, ever forget that Jesus, a.k.a. Yeshua, was a practicing Jew when he was alive on Earth. If you reject the Jews, you are also rejecting Him.

Which peoples were to be blessed by the Messiah?

A. Just the Jews
B. Just the Calvinists
C. Just the Catholics
D. The whole world

pescador · Apr 20, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Nonsense. I quoted the Bible verbatim. Lets test your knowledge:

Who delivered Jesus up to be crucified?

A. The Romans
B. The Italians
c. The Jews
D. The Calvinists

Let’s try this again.
Who was living in Palestine ca. 30AD?

A. The Palestinians
B. The Jews and some Romans stationed there.
C. The Calvinists
D. The KKK

This is fun.

Who first preachedto the Gentiles?

A. Peter
B. Paul
C. Jesus

Which peoples were to be blessed by the Messiah?

A. Just the Jews
B. Just the Calvinists
C. Just the Catholics
D. The whole world

Was Jesus a Jew? Were all His original disciples Jews? Was Paul a Jew? Aside from Luke, what other New Testament authors were not Jews?

You cannot justify your previous anti-Semitic posts!

pescador · Apr 20, 2020

Matthew 1:18, "She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people [the Jews] from their sins. This immediately follows Jesus' genealogy tracing His Jewish ancestry.

Matthew 2:1-2 "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, in the time of King Herod, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem saying, “Where is the one who is born king of the Jews?

Matthew 2:6 "And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are in no way least among the rulers of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel"

I am not going to go through the entire New Testament to prove that Jesus and all his followers prior to Paul were all Jews. Even after Paul made his journeys many of those who followed Jesus were Jews.

You cannot, with any justification, attack Jesus' own people. If you attack the Jews you are attacking Him.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 20, 2020

pescador said:
Was Jesus a Jew? Were all His original disciples Jews? Was Paul a Jew? Aside from Luke, what other New Testament authors were not Jews?

You cannot justify your previous anti-Semitic posts!

Nonsense. You refuse to answer my questions.

pescador · Apr 20, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Nonsense. You refuse to answer my questions.

Because they have no value.

You just have to examine your attitude toward the Jews, including Jesus. If you are against the Jews, you are against Him.

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