Women's roles

[By Grace]

I have some pretty strong beliefs on this subject, so I wasn't sure if I was ready yet to bring this question up. So many of the things I've been reading here seem so full of Truth, but this one topic is really giving me a hard time (well, this one and the communion topic!). I'm not even sure I could completely defend what I believe with some of you who are so knowledgeable. But I at least wanted to get some input on where everyone stands so I can have some food for thought. I know, someone is going to say to search the threads. Unfortunately, with 2 kids under 2, it's hard for me to find time to do that. Lately, I've esp. had a hard time getting online time b/c my husband is so sensitive about my spending time researching all of this when he's still so resistant to it.

So if some of you could just tell me what you believe and practice, and what Scriptures you use to support that, I would really appreciate it. Basically, I want to know what restrictions you think the Scriptures place on women. My current church (Church of Christ, which we're trying to leave) believes women cannot lead any part of service, or even teach a man. But from the research I've done in the NT (before I discovered Messianics), I've learned that the passages that churches traditionally use to restrict women's activities in church have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood. I'm certainly not saying that women should usurp men's authority. But I think the Father originally intended for that authority to be equally shared between man and woman. We are all to submit to each other in a willful, loving, respectful way, not just women submitting to men.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to everyone's input. I will definitely search the older threads as I have time, too!

Thanks...

 

[Toney]

When in England (Cornwall) I attend St Buryan parish, a Royal Peculiar near Penzance with a woman (Anglican) priest. There are a number of Episcopal parishes here in the U.S. with women priests. It is the future of the Church.

The last 4,000 years have been patriarchal. We have not had a good matriarchal society in the world since the Minoan Civilization. I believe that is going to change and change very soon. I hope I am right.

G-d bless you, Jill. Keep searching. He will not lead you astray, nor ever forsake you.

 

[blessed2]

The role of women in traditional Judaism has been grossly misrepresented and misunderstood. The position of women is not nearly as lowly as many modern people think; in fact, the position of women in halakhah (Jewish Law) that dates back to the biblical period is in many ways better than the position of women under American civil law as recently as a century ago.
In traditional Judaism, women are for the most part seen as separate but equal. Women's obligations and responsibilities are different from men's, but no less important (in fact, in some ways, women's responsibilities are considered more important, as we shall see).
The equality of men and women begins at the highest possible level: G-d. In Judaism, unlike Christianity, G-d has never been viewed as exclusively male or masculine. Judaism has always maintained that G-d has both masculine and feminine qualities. As one rabbi explained it to me, G-d has no body, no genitalia, therefore the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.
Both man and woman were created in the image of G-d. According to most Jewish scholars, "man" was created in Gen. 1:27 with dual gender, and was later separated into male and female.
According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of "binah" (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was "built" (Gen. 2:22) rather than "formed" (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of "build" has the same consonants as the word "binah." It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophesy. Women did not participate in the idolatry regarding the Golden Calf. See Rosh Chodesh below. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to G-d's ideal than men.
Women have held positions of respect in Judaism since biblical times. Miriam is considered one of the liberators of the Children of Israel, along with her brothers Moses and Aaron. One of the Judges (Deborah) was a woman. Seven of the 55 prophets of the Bible were women.
There were many learned women of note. The Talmud and later rabbinical writings speak of the wisdom of Berurya, the wife of Rabbi Meir. In several instances, her opinions on halakhah (Jewish Law) were accepted over those of her male contemporaries. In the ketubah (marriage contract) of Rabbi Akiba's son, the wife is obligated to teach the husband Torah! Many rabbis over the centuries have been known to consult their wives on matters of Jewish law relating to the woman's role, such as laws of kashrut and women's cycles. The wife of a rabbi is referred to as a rebbetzin, practically a title of her own, which should give some idea of her significance in Jewish life.
The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until this century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America, rape within marriage is still not a criminal act.
Read more
From judaism 101
http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm

 

[Katydid]

Sorry, you aren't going to find what you are looking for from me. I believe that I am asked to submit, my husband is asked to love me. Which if we both do our part, the marriage works out fine. How can he oppress me, if he is in love with me. He jokes and always says he is completely obsessed with me. I don't believe that women should have authority over men. I believe that women should place a high priority on their children and on their home. Call me old fashioned but I like living my life this way. I am at peace and trust my husband. I feel that I am equal to him, I just have different responsibilities.

 

[By Grace]

Sorry, you aren't going to find what you are looking for from me. I believe that I am asked to submit, my husband is asked to love me. Which if we both do our part, the marriage works out fine. How can he oppress me, if he is in love with me. He jokes and always says he is completely obsessed with me. I don't believe that women should have authority over men. I believe that women should place a high priority on their children and on their home. Call me old fashioned but I like living my life this way. I am at peace and trust my husband. I feel that I am equal to him, I just have different responsibilities.

Actually, I don't disagree with you that much. I know I'm supposed to submit to my husband, which means I willingly place his desires and preferences and needs ahead of my own. But all Believers are also told to submit to one another, so I think he is also instructed to submit to me, not in the way that I have authority over him (edited to add: I can't just order him around or force him to do anything he doesn't want to do, just like he shouldn't do that to me), but in the way that he looks for ways to help me be happier. Basically, the way it works out is that we both place the other's needs ahead of our own, which means we both get pretty well taken care of. When it comes down to making decisions, both of us willingly defer to the one most qualified to make the decision. For example, in regards to childrearing, he frequently (almost too much! ) defers to my opinion b/c I'm the one at home with the girls all day and I know more about what's going on. But when it comes to major financial decisions, I usually defer to him, not b/c I can't understand finances (we both stay well-informed on that), but b/c he's the one who keeps the checkbook and he's an accountant, too!

Mostly, I'm looking for opinions on women's roles in the church (both in the body of Believers at large, and in the assembly).

I'll add more later. My baby has a yucky diaper that needs changing!

 

[Henaynei]

The role of women in traditional Judaism has been grossly misrepresented and misunderstood. The position of women is not nearly as lowly as many modern people think; in fact, the position of women in halakhah (Jewish Law) that dates back to the biblical period is in many ways better than the position of women under American civil law as recently as a century ago.
In traditional Judaism, women are for the most part seen as separate but equal. Women's obligations and responsibilities are different from men's, but no less important (in fact, in some ways, women's responsibilities are considered more important, as we shall see).

Yes!! Actully, women are the salt that preserves Judaism and the Jewish community - some meager role - LOL

 

[Sephania]

It just so happens I have just purchased a book on this very subject. I have not had a chance to read it as yet but it piqued my interest on womanly things and the word so I bought it. The title is:

Paul, Women and Wives by Craig S. Keener

The subject is, Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul

ISBN 0-943575-96-6

From the contents it deals with

Head Coverings
Questions in service
Learning in Silence
Why Paul told wives to Submit
Mutual submission
Womens Ministry


There are many sources used which is what attracked me to this book. These inclulde the Apocrypha, The Tenach, Qumran texts, Midrash, Tosefta, Babylonian Talmud, Josephus, Philo, Early Christian literature and Greco-Roman ancient Mediterranean Literature. This sounds to me like it gives the history of woman and their roles and ancient pagan practices that Sha'ul may have been speaking against.

I have not had a chance yet to start reading it but will soon and let you know if you are interested. It sounds to me as if it will be an informative read.

 

[By Grace]

I have not had a chance yet to start reading it but will soon and let you know if you are interested. It sounds to me as if it will be an informative read.

That book sounds very interesting! Definitely let me know if it's as good as it sounds.

Here are some other books I've read, though all of this was before I realized how important Judaism was to our faith, I don't know how they relate to all that.

10 Lies the Church Tells Women, by J. Lee Grady

What Paul Really Said About Women, by John Temple Bristow

Woman Remove Thy Veil (can't remember the author)

Why Not Women? (reading that one now, so I don't really have an opinion of it yet, and again, I don't remember the author)

 

[Sephania]

Hi Jill, do any of those books use Judaic texts for clarification on what Sha'ul was teaching? He was a Pharasee taught by Gamiliel, basically a Rabbinic Rabbi if you will

 

[By Grace]

Hi Jill, do any of those books use Judaic texts for clarification on what Sha'ul was teaching? He was a Pharasee taught by Gamiliel, basically a Rabbinic Rabbi if you will

Of the two books I have in front of me, only one (Bristow's) seems to have what you're talking about, but then, I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for, so don't hold me to it!

HTH,

 

[WildCelt]

My church (www.mhbcmi.org) has been considering this issue for some time now. Our pastor presented a series of teachings that addressed this issue, and basically opened the door for women in official ministry (you know, being teachers and elders, and not the "elder's wife" kind of ministry). His teaching was completely scripturally based, and IMO, life-changing. Having said that, it did of course cause some waves in our community, but for the most part has been enthusiastically accepted.

The teachings were recorded, and can be obtained via the website (I think) if anyone is interested.