Women's dress

[abacabb3]

It should go without saying, but in the visible church there has been great care to avoid offending society at large on several issues, one of which is women's issues. A narrow part of women's issues which the visible church tends to be silent about is women's dress. Now that does not include everyone. Notable exception is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZohCEqRMWCQ

However, most of the time everyone just keeps quiet. A little too much make up here, a little cleavage there, too-tight skirt or pants over there...men are supposed to pretend like they don't notice, women pretend that they are merely dressing "nice" even though the intention behind the dress is in fact to increase one's sex appeal, and we all pretend that 1 Tim 2 and 1 Peter 3 do not exist.

This is something the church has to wake up to, even if the "intentions" of some people is benign. We are misleading the elect women of God through gross negligence and just because the world does not think it is sinful, that does not mean women inflating their ego with clothing and extreme amounts of time keeping up appearances isn't sinful.

 

[stenerson]

I agree with him 100percent.

 

[JM]

Personally...I don't care want women wear. That's never been an issue for me but I can see how that causes trouble for others. My personal sins are legion but how women dress isn't doesn't bother me.

 

[stenerson]

Personally...I don't care want women wear. That's never been an issue for me but I can see how that causes trouble for others. My personal sins are legion but how women dress isn't doesn't bother me.

It's not a matter of some people caring or not, or some being so focused that they don't notice. It is a New Testament, Christian principle and few pastors have the courage to bring it up.
I'll confess that a beautiful, voluptuous woman dressed in very sexy, provocative attire does affect me. It does cause my eyes to stray sometimes, or rather it causes me to make conscious efforts not to let them stray. Does that mean I'm a weaker brother? Maybe. I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[abacabb3]

Same here, though the main concern in my OP is for the women themselves. Obviously, they are battling pride and don't even know it. They are being vain, envious of how other woman look, being proud of their looks as if it were their own and not something God gave, and using ornamentation and adornment that the Scripture specifically warns against. And no one points it out.

"Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand." (Ezek 3:17-18).

I think us men need to man up, and instead of sucking it in because we're "strong enough" to handle it, look out for those who are going wayward into sin.

 

[look4hope]

~Women's perspective~

I can understand, and agree to a certain point. We need to Keep in mind to dress appropriately. It doesn't mean a woman has to feel awkwardly uncomfortable. But yes, Is just common sense. It's called respect. Respect to God, respect to our brothers and sisters in Christ, and of course, respect to ourselves.

 

[JM]

Ahhh….legalism.

Am I the only one that sees it?

I’m all for preaching and teaching modesty, it’s biblical, but how does the local church enforce modesty and avoid legalism? Twin warned me about Martin in the past but this is the clearest example of legalism I've seen from him.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

This is as far as we all should go...

"I am not about to establish a dress code for our worship services; but I abhor the casual, sometimes immodest attire that has become common in many places. In the house of God, attending the worship of God in the assembly of his saints, we ought to dress for worship, as people who take the worship of God seriously and come to the house of God respectfully. I know everything today is geared toward casual attire, because everything today is geared toward disrespect and utter disregard for others. Let us, out of reverence for our God, respect for one another, and the honor of the gospel of the grace of God, dress with some dignity when we come to the house of God. Do not over-dress, calling attention to yourself; and do not under-dress, showing a disregard for the worship of God. In the house of God especially, let us all adorn ourselves in “modest apparel.” - Don Fortner

 

[JM]

What is worldliness? Modern religionists say that it is worldly to dress according to the fashion of the times, to wear your hair in a given way, to wear a beard, or to drink a glass of wine. Yet, our Lord dressed according to the fashion of the common man in his day. He wore a seamless robe and sandals, like all other men. Our Savior wore his hair much longer than modern styles, and he wore a beard, according to the custom of his day. Jesus of Nazareth drank wine with his disciples, and turned water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana. Was the Son of God worldly? Perish the thought!

Men look upon the outward appearance. They place great stock in a man's outward dress and conduct. By these things they determine who are and who are not worldly, who are and who are not the people of God. But God takes no stock in such things. Our Lord made it plain. It is not what a man wears, eats, or drinks that determines his relationship with God. Rather, it is his heart attitude.

What is worldliness? It is the love of the world. Dear friends, be sure thatyou do not love the world. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." Do not allow your hearts to become fondly attached to this world, neither its people nor its pleasures, neither its fame nor its fortunes, neither its success nor its security. "Love not the world." It is perishing. Everything in it is marked for destruction. But "Set your affection on things above", even Jesus Christ and the riches of his glory and grace. - Don Fortner

 

[abacabb3]

I take issue with the term legalism, in this case. It is not as if the Scripture did not twice give specific details on how to be modest.

Why baptize? Why do the Lord's Supper? Why make sure only men are elders? That's legalism!

 

[abacabb3]

Here's list of things that even though our salvation does not depend upon it, a preacher can preach on without being a legalist:

-Rape is wrong
-Being a serial killer will compromise one's church membership
-Tithing, though not a necessary christian practice, is a good Christian practice
-Going to Church with T&A hangin' out there in the breeze is bad and a regenerate Christian, when corrected, would see the wisdom in this.

 

[JM]

Here's list of things that even though our salvation does not depend upon it, a preacher can preach on without being a legalist:

-Rape is wrong
-Being a serial killer will compromise one's church membership
-Tithing, though not a necessary christian practice, is a good Christian practice
-Going to Church with T&A hangin' out there in the breeze is bad and a regenerate Christian, when corrected, would see the wisdom in this.

As I pointed out with the Fortner quote…thus far and no further.

You can preach about all kinds of things, give godly advice, etc. but cannot enforce them without being a legalist.

You can preach about tithing but cannot set a percent because scripture does not. You can preach about being modest but not how long a womens dress is suppose to be because scripture does not.

Once you do...you're a legalist.

 

[JM]

PS: You are confusing doctrinal commands (baptism/lord’s supper) with godly advice and wisdom.

 

[JM]

These folks have rules about how women dress.

 

[JM]

 

[JM]

 

[abacabb3]

As I pointed out with the Fortner quote…thus far and no further.

You can preach about all kinds of things, give godly advice, etc. but cannot enforce them without being a legalist.

You can preach about tithing but cannot set a percent because scripture does not. You can preach about being modest but not how long a womens dress is suppose to be because scripture does not.

Once you do...you're a legalist.

To be fair to the OP, the OP simply says it is time men speak up about this problem, particularly from the pulpit. It does not suggest excommunicating people.

However, I will dig my feet in and reassert I don't like the legalist label. It's like throwing out the word "racist." The moment the word is thrown out, it taints the accused person's position, where it is no longer the merits of their position that's judged, but rather they have to defend themselves from being a Pharisee.

Churches have all sorts of rules that have nothing to do with salvation, but we listen to them to our benefit. If you are giving the prayer, you wear a suit. I'm personally against this, but no one bats an eye lash at this obvious "legalism." Yet, those who endorse such formality will call you a "legalist" if you expect a woman come to Church not trying to turn you on with her 1 hour hairstyle and sexy dress. Sorry, but that's some massive hypocrisy there.

In fact, I think if people actually knew what legalism was, none of this would be an argument.

No one is opposed to obedience to specific commands of God. This is precisely why we do the Lord's Supper, baptism, confess sins and etcetera. The Bible positively affirms that we should.

Legalism is creating rules that are not specifically found in the Scripture. The Pharisees said you had to wash your hands before eating, because your hands could be contaminated with something ritually unclean. The Catholics said no meat on Fridays because, well...no meat on Fridays cuz they say so!

A Church that demands that a woman who leads a prayer must cover her head physically is not being legalistic...they are following what the Bible literally says. Making sure the preacher wears a suit, or that a baptism is not official unless the Pastor does it, things that churches generally accept without crying legalism, like when someone brings up modesty which specifically is in the Scripture, actually is legalism.

 

[abacabb3]

Sorry, you can't go to church this way.

 

[JM]

...you can't or shouldn't?

 

[abacabb3]

Must not, just like you must not go to church naked.