Without the Pope there is no unity

[marciadietrich]

Since the thread chanter began was closed thought I'd try a positive alternative.

I'll probably need a bit of help on the tradition aspects, but I can see no permanent or lasting Christian unity without the office of the Pope. Division comes when there is a break from the Pope and then those who have left blame the authority and uniqueness of the Pope's office when they leave for disunity after they have split. They are the prodigal sons and they need to return to the unity.

Christ left us the Church, and the Church is the Body of Christ. The Pope is the ultimate authority on earth vicarious of Christ who is our head. The Church is the barque of Peter.

Peter, warts and all, was specifically left to tend Christ's flock. His preeminence is clear from how he is nearly always mentioned first in lists of the disciples and far and away most often. He speaks for the group (Matt 16: 18 being the most quoted) . In his office he is empowered (Acts, though Paul is featured as well for his dramatic conversion Peter is leading among the apostles) . Paul sought Peter out after his conversion because it was Peter who was preeminent (Galations 1: 18). That doesn't mean Peter or his successors are a dictator, it doesn't mean he is perfect personally, doesn't mean every word from his mouth is without error ... but he was given the keys, given special charisms for the sake of the Church. Charisms that we still need today and will need until Christ returns. Christ didn't leave us orphans, and what was established in the beginnings of the Church are going to continue on to today.

Okay, mostly random thoughts there. But I find it odd that people who break from unity want to blame the real source of unity for their schism.

No offense chanter. I usually greatly enjoy your contributions.

Marcia

 

[thereselittleflower]

I agree . . without the Pope, there is no unity . ..


Peace in Him!

 

[Carrye]

What an interesting idea. I don't think I've ever thought of it that way before.

 

[geocajun]

Since the thread chanter began was closed thought I'd try a positive alternative.

great thread! am I allowed to participate in this one?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Just from my experience as a protestant, I can say that I agree with you. When there were problems in the reformed church, they just split; there was never any return to unity. I think that this is because they are run like a democracy, when people don't like what they hear, they move on, majority rules, and the minority has no choice but to leave.
The Catholic church is run more like a family, with the Pope as our papa. We as children can stray, but God in His mercy calls us back home. I am just glad that there is a home to come back to.
I have so much more peace in the Catholic church than I have ever felt before.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

great thread! am I allowed to participate in this one?

Please geo You posts and thoughts are always welcome in my book

Jerome

 

[geocajun]

Please geo You posts and thoughts are always welcome in my book

Thank you!

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Just from my experience as a protestant, I can say that I agree with you. When there were problems in the reformed church, they just split; there was never any return to unity. I think that this is because they are run like a democracy, when people don't like what they hear, they move on, majority rules, and the minority has no choice but to leave.
The Catholic church is run more like a family, with the Pope as our papa. We as children can stray, but God in His mercy calls us back home. I am just glad that there is a home to come back to.
I have so much more peace in the Catholic church than I have ever felt before.

 

[geocajun]

Peter, warts and all, was specifically left to tend Christ's flock.

This tract from Catholic Answers has within it my favorite short summary of Peter being the leader of the Church:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).

 

[geocajun]

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
(emphasis mine)

 

[geocajun]

St. Augustine

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

(emphasis mine)

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

 

[marciadietrich]

Tetullian MODESTY 220AD

I

now inquite into your opinion, to see whnce you usurp this right for the Church. Do you presume, because the Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven," or "whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven," that the power of binding and loosing has thereby been handed on to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter? What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when He conferred this personally upon Peter? On you, He says, I will build my Church; and I will give you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed.

Hope geo hasn't gotten to that one yet.

 

[geocajun]

Marica, I was only posting a select few, where the Fathers were either showing the benefit of having the Pope, or problems with not having the Pope

 

[Amandine]

Wow..the quote from Augustine is the most convincing I've heard! Who doesn't rely on him for proof text?
-Catherine

 

[marciadietrich]

Marica, I was only posting a select few, where the Fathers were either showing the benefit of having the Pope, or problems with not having the Pope

Glad you did, just I was about to quote a similiar one from Cyprian then noticed you had a good one already up.

Marcia

 

[geocajun]

Wow..the quote from Augustine is the most convincing I've heard! Who doesn't rely on him for proof text?
-Catherine

well then, I will make it my new signature

 

[KennySe]

Optatus of Milevus

"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp

 

[BAChristian]

I don't know if I agree with y'all...

If there were no Pope, for, say...two years. Do you just think people would up and leave?

Probably. But that's just a show of how low the person's faith meter really goes...

Would the Church collapse without the Pope? No. Because the Pope isn't our foundation -- Jesus Christ is.

 

[MariaRegina]

I don't know if I agree with y'all...

If there were no Pope, for, say...two years. Do you just think people would up and leave?

Probably. But that's just a show of how low the person's faith meter really goes...

Would the Church collapse without the Pope? No. Because the Pope isn't our foundation -- Jesus Christ is.

Yes, BA, "The Church's one foundation is Jesus Christ the Lord"
(as the song and scripture goes. Sing it louder.)

The CCC also states that the Head of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ.

We are the Body of Christ. This is believed by both the Orthodox and Catholic Church.

Christ's Body and Blood in the Eucharist is the Sign of Unity. Christ unifies us.

 

[marciadietrich]

I don't know if I agree with y'all...

If there were no Pope, for, say...two years. Do you just think people would up and leave?

Probably. But that's just a show of how low the person's faith meter really goes...

Would the Church collapse without the Pope? No. Because the Pope isn't our foundation -- Jesus Christ is.

Hi BA,

The point is how do you know if you are with the true church that Christ founded where unity in Christ can be found. That church is the Catholic Church, it is with Peter and his successors, not relying on any individual Pope because the authority of the Church is ultimately from Christ, but that is how you KNOW if you are following Christ in unity and not wandering in disunity. The Church is ultimately founded on Christ, but Christ set it up that on earth Peter was the rock and his successors maintain that earthly foundation.

The Church always survives the periods of transition such as when John Paul I died and there had to be a conclave to elect John Paul II. And it will survive the interim, however long, after JPII goes to be with our Lord. But if individuals or groups walk away from the authority of the Church which is headed by Peter and his successor the Pope then they walk away from the true Church and they walk away from unity.

Hope that helps...

Marcia