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Without prejudging... Babylon

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visionary

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How exactly did Babylon become equated with Rome?



harlot of babylon


In the prophetic books and the historical books of the Old Testament, Babylon is described primarily as the one who destroyed Jerusalem. And for John, writing after 70, Babylon then becomes a code name for Rome, because it was the second city to destroy the Temple. ... "Babylon" is the most common phrase that John uses to refer to Rome, and at first he introduces that term very briefly and indirectly. And the place where it's elaborated is Chapter 17, the vision of the Great Harlot. Babylon is a city with overtones of imperial might and destructiveness, conqueror of other cities. Then you have the harlot with her golden cup, her purple, or scarlet clothing, her jewels sitting on seven hills. He hints that it's Rome in several ways. One, that she sits on seven hills, and Rome was famous as the city of seven hills, and several times in chapters 13 and 17 it's talked about as ruling all the peoples of the earth. And there was only one possibility in John's time, that has to be Rome. ...

Take this to not equate Rome with RRC This is a historic position of John's time, and the understanding that maybe the recipients of the letter would have understood it to be.
 

jabechler

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visionary said:
How exactly did Babylon become equated with Rome?



harlot of babylon


In the prophetic books and the historical books of the Old Testament, Babylon is described primarily as the one who destroyed Jerusalem. And for John, writing after 70, Babylon then becomes a code name for Rome, because it was the second city to destroy the Temple. ... "Babylon" is the most common phrase that John uses to refer to Rome, and at first he introduces that term very briefly and indirectly. And the place where it's elaborated is Chapter 17, the vision of the Great Harlot. Babylon is a city with overtones of imperial might and destructiveness, conqueror of other cities. Then you have the harlot with her golden cup, her purple, or scarlet clothing, her jewels sitting on seven hills. He hints that it's Rome in several ways. One, that she sits on seven hills, and Rome was famous as the city of seven hills, and several times in chapters 13 and 17 it's talked about as ruling all the peoples of the earth. And there was only one possibility in John's time, that has to be Rome. ...

Take this to not equate Rome with RRC This is a historic position of John's time, and the understanding that maybe the recipients of the letter would have understood it to be.
actually Babylon was the city from the tower of babel which meant confusion. The application of Rome in the prophecies of Daniel and of John refer to Holy Rome not Pagan Rome as a term for their confusion of the Word of God and the perversion of Gods truth. This was the position and teaching of the reformation until.....check the history.
 
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Rut

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jabechler said:
actually Babylon was the city from the tower of babel which meant confusion. The application of Rome in the prophecies of Daniel and of John refer to Holy Rome not Pagan Rome as a term for their confusion of the Word of God and the perversion of Gods truth. This was the position and teaching of the reformation until.....check the history.

How can we check the history? Rev is about the future
Rev 1:1 What evidence do we have that Babylon is Rome?
 
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jabechler

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visionary said:
In John's day, was Holy Rome even in existence?
No ,but Johns writings of the Revelation were prophectic just as daniels were and yet rome as an empire did not exist in his lifetime either. God reveals many of the interpretations of prophecy in the writings themselfves. Some prophecies in Revelations have had there interpretations commonly held since the reformation period. Will find some examples and post them soon.
 
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Nazaroo

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We should not ignore the generality of the term "Babylon" in the New Testament especially.

Jerusalem "where our Lord was crucified" is also called Babylon. Babylon can be alternately a 'code-word', a metaphor, and an ironic or cynical description of almost any large central seat of worldly power, as in the case of Rome.

Historically, it is true that Babylon was firmly and intensely applied to the RC church during the first 100 years of the Reformation, and is still so interpreted today by many large Protestant groups. And the success of this analogy was largely due to the sins of apostacy that had polluted the worldy administration of the church in the time of the Reformation.

Today it would be more difficult to continue applying the the image of the Babylon of prophecy (in Revelation) to the RC church. While there is little doubt that sin still abounds in the RC church, as in all institutions on earth, the full scope of the prophecy seems to include alot more than simply the Vatican.

Today the RC church has quite a different public image at least from that drawn in Revelation. The application wholly and exclusively to the RC church seems to minimise the seriousness of the final fulfillment of this grand-scale prophetic warning. We may be entering the Last Days, or at least the beginning of the pages covering the End Times in Revelation.

We naturally should be expecting a greater and more appropriate fulfillment of these prophecies, if we take Revelation as a literal description of the Last Days of planet Earth yet to come to pass. This is not to abandon the just complaints of the Reformers, or negate the possibility of dire developments in the Last Days which would require reviving the Reformer's viewpoints. But we are still awaiting the proper fulfillment of these visions, if we believe that the pictures painted remain unfulfilled.

In the meantime, Christians should always "Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues" (Rev 18:4) and react appropriately in ANY situation that resembles the Harlot of Babylon, any center or institution that trades in guns, drugs, prostitution, and which enslaves the people of the earth.

This would include mafias, biker gangs, drug dealing institutions, standing armies, corrupt churches, and any other group of people or organizations that engage in criminal activities as defined by the Word of the Lord.
 
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visionary

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Johns writings of the Revelation were prophectic just as daniels were and yet rome as an empire did not exist in his lifetime either.
Jerusalem as well as Israel was under Roman power when Christ lived. So Rome as an Empire did exist when John wrote.
 
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jabechler

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Nazaroo said:
We should not ignore the generality of the term "Babylon" in the New Testament especially.

Jerusalem "where our Lord was crucified" is also called Babylon. Babylon can be alternately a 'code-word', a metaphor, and an ironic or cynical description of almost any large central seat of worldly power, as in the case of Rome.

Historically, it is true that Babylon was firmly and intensely applied to the RC church during the first 100 years of the Reformation, and is still so interpreted today by many large Protestant groups. And the success of this analogy was largely due to the sins of apostacy that had polluted the worldy administration of the church in the time of the Reformation.

Today it would be more difficult to continue applying the the image of the Babylon of prophecy (in Revelation) to the RC church. While there is little doubt that sin still abounds in the RC church, as in all institutions on earth, the full scope of the prophecy seems to include alot more than simply the Vatican.

Today the RC church has quite a different public image at least from that drawn in Revelation. The application wholly and exclusively to the RC church seems to minimise the seriousness of the final fulfillment of this grand-scale prophetic warning. We may be entering the Last Days, or at least the beginning of the pages covering the End Times in Revelation.

We naturally should be expecting a greater and more appropriate fulfillment of these prophecies, if we take Revelation as a literal description of the Last Days of planet Earth yet to come to pass. This is not to abandon the just complaints of the Reformers, or negate the possibility of dire developments in the Last Days which would require reviving the Reformer's viewpoints. But we are still awaiting the proper fulfillment of these visions, if we believe that the pictures painted remain unfulfilled.

In the meantime, Christians should always "Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues" (Rev 18:4) and react appropriately in ANY situation that resembles the Harlot of Babylon, any center or institution that trades in guns, drugs, prostitution, and which enslaves the people of the earth.

This would include mafias, biker gangs, drug dealing institutions, standing armies, corrupt churches, and any other group of people or organizations that engage in criminal activities as defined by the Word of the Lord.
Very true but we cant ignore that though the RC has a gentler character and image today its still has teachings and doctrines not in line with scripture which they place 2nd to tradition. If babylon is a confusion of Gods word and law then we must say that the RC ( or say the Papacy) is still representative of Babylon.

check out this study http://www.tagnet.org/cyberspace/Lessons/Fut-077/fut1-077.html
 
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jabechler

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Rut said:
How can we check the history? Rev is about the future
Rev 1:1 What evidence do we have that Babylon is Rome?




Just a few historical references:

Image1.gif

istorical proofs such as Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons: Or, The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife" (1853) demonstrate to the willing mind the certain connection of Ancient Babylon to the final form of the One World Religion ruled by the False Prophet, who "causeth the Earth and them which dwell therein to worship" (Revelation 13:12) the Antichrist. Hislop's classic work focuses on "Rome [i.e., the Roman Catholic Church] as the Apocalyptic Babylon". He concludes, "Let every Christian henceforth and for ever treat it as an outcast from the pale of Christianity. Instead of speaking of it as a Christian Church, let it be recognised and regarded as the Mystery of Iniquity, yea, as the very Synagogue of Satan." "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (18:4).





While waiting for the papal bull to reach him, Luther published "The Babylonish Captivity of the Church" on October 6th 1520. Luther wrote,
"I denied that the Papacy was of Divine origin, but I granted that it was of human right. Now, after reading all the subtleties on which these gentry have set up their idol, I know that the Papacy is none other than the kingdom of Babylon, and the violence of Nimrod the mighty hunter [WStS emphasis]. I therefore beseech all my friends and all the booksellers to burn the books that I have written on this subject, and to substitute this one proposition in their place: The Papacy is a general chase led by the Roman bishop to catch and destroy souls" (Wylie, Volume 1, Book 6, Chapter 2, p. 489). Luther understood that Romanism is identified with Babylon the Great. "Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right" (Proverbs 20:11).

About this same time (October 1520), Luther wrote a letter to Pope Leo X. The following are excerpts of that letter:
"It is true that I have attacked the court of Rome; but neither yourself nor any man living can deny that there is greater corruption in it than was in Sodom and Gomorrah, and that the impiety that prevails makes cure hopeless. Yes, I have been horrified in seeing how, under your name, the poor followers of Christ were deceived… You know it. Rome has for many years been inundating the world with whatever could destroy both soul and body. The Church of Rome, formerly the first in holiness, has become a den of robbers, a place of prostitution, a kingdom of death and hell; so that Antichrist himself, were he to appear, would be unable to increase the amount of wickedness. All this is as clear as day... You should perish by poison even before you could try any remedy. It is all over with the court of Rome. The wrath of God has overtaken and will consume it. It hates counsel–it fears reform–it will not moderate the fury of its ungodliness; and hence it may be justly said of it as of its mother: We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed–forsake her [Jeremiah 51:9]" (Wylie, Volume 1, Book 6, Chapter 2, pp. 491-492).







Image2.gif

Pastor Charles Chiniquy (1809-1899)-- a former Roman Catholic priest, who for 25 years zealously promoted Catholicism in Canada and the United States of America-- offered us this clue to the identity of Babylon the Great in the Dedication of his book, "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" (1886): "Rome is the great danger ahead for the Church of Christ, and you do not understand it enough... The atmosphere of light, honesty, truth, and holiness in which you are born, and which you have breathed since your infancy, makes it almost impossible for you to realize the dark mysteries of idolatry, immorality, degrading slavery, hatred of the Word of God, concealed behind the walls of that Modern Babylon [WStS emphasis added]... It is that ignorance which paves the way to the triumph of Rome, in a near future, if there is not a complete change in your views on that subject... It is that ignorance which paralyses the arm of the Church of Christ, and makes the glorious word "Protestant" senseless, almost a dead and ridiculous word. For who does really protest against Rome today? where are those who sound the trumpet of alarm?... modern Protestants have not only forgotten what Rome was, what she is, and what she will for ever be; the most irreconcilable and powerful enemy of the Gospel of Christ; but they consider her almost as a branch of the church whose corner stone is Christ." "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psalm 11:3). "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure" (2Timothy 2:19). And, "I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18).

[Read in Chiniquy's substantial work, "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" ---New Window, his firsthand insights into the workings of the Church of Rome, and see if indeed the "leopard [has changed] his spots" (Jeremiah 13:23).]










Protestant Reformation
Some pre-Reformation writers and most of the Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the harlot of Babylon. This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible. As a tradition, it continues through Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified "ecclesiastical Babylon" with "apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy") and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The "drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs", by this interpretation, refers to the veneration of saints and relics, which is viewed by the Reformers as idolatry and apostasy. Those who accept this tradition use the phrase "harlot of Babylon" to refer to the Roman Catholic Church.
The Protestant reformers were not the first people to call the Roman Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon. There was a fairly long tradition of this kind of name-calling by opponents of the Papacy. Frederick Barbarossa published missives that called the Papacy the harlot of Babylon, and the Pope the Antichrist, during the course of his protracted quarrel with Pope Alexander III. Dante equated the corruption and simony in the office of the Papacy with the harlot of Babylon in Canto 19 of his Inferno:
Di voi pastor s'accorse il Vangelista,
quando colei che siede sopra l'acque
puttaneggiar coi regi a lui fu vista. . .

("Shepherds like you the Evangelist had in mind when he saw the one that sits upon the waters committing fornication with the kings.")
When the Florentine tyrant Girolamo Savonarola also called the Papacy the harlot of Babylon, he meant something closer to the Reformers' usage. These claims, however, were based chiefly on social and political disagreements with Roman Catholic policy, or at their strongest accuse the Papacy of moral corruption. The Protestant reformers, by contrast, seriously considered the Papacy to be at least potentially the apocalyptic figure mentioned in Bible prophecy, and included the claim in Bible commentaries as well as polemics. They meant something more than to accuse the Roman Catholic Church of political or moral corruption; they claimed that as a church it taught a Satanic counterfeit plan of salvation, one that would lead its faithful to Hell rather than to Heaven.


Check the dates this belief is not new. Many denominations still believe this is true.
 
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jabechler

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visionary said:
Jerusalem as well as Israel was under Roman power when Christ lived. So Rome as an Empire did exist when John wrote.



Revelation was clearly written for and about the church, Gods people and Gods plan for them. So we are plainly dealing with a religio political system not a pagan system. At the time of John this was the pagan roman empire not the Holy roman empire.
 
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