With all the UR threads...

Armistead · Sep 24, 2008

HuntingMan said:
False.
All that has been PROVEN is that Adam chose to do what God instructed him NOT to do.

The God some of you worship is FAR worse than the One I do. At least MY God doesnt play little mind games with His creation like rats in a maze.

So it was God's plan to remain for all of humanity to remain in a garden. I guess the garden would increase in size as population increased.

You need to answer a few question to prove God wanted man in the garden forever.

Obvious, God knowing all knew Satan would fall, but created him anyway.

When Satan fell, why did God not destroy him right away,,,knowing what he could do?

Why didn't God take away his power, being the most powerful angel? Simply take away his power...and that was that, no evil.

And for what possible reason would God remove Satan from heaven and place him on earth with man with all this power?

Then why put the tree there in the first place..Not there, man doesn't eat and God knowing beforehand he would anyway.

You see God put all the pieces in place for man to fall. It was his plan and
you give Satan and man too much credit for having the power to ruin God's plan.

When we speak of having truth, a better way to describe it is this. Children don't have a real understanding of truth, even though they can be told no, because they lack real knowledge, they still act. Adam and Eve were basically children and they did not understand the true impact. Yes,
they knew God said no, but did not have the knowledge to understand WHY no. Like children, they had no real understanding. That's why Satan
easily tempted them...God already allowed evil in the garden, because he gave Satan entrance to it.

Adam and Eve did not have truth or understanding of God's plan. But it was obvious God's plan that man would have knowledge. In order for that to happen, he planned the fall of man. We can argue why...freewill, ect, but it was God's plan. Yes, they did not obey...God knew that beforehand...please stop blaming them. But not having knowledge of truth, God already had the remedy...He clothed them...already showing the salvation of Christ...and started working his plan for the ages.

You may feel God eternally damned you for just being born, but they truth is, God already saved you before you were born.

God had a better plan than a garden already ordained...the new heaven and earth...and the clear proof why the garden was flawed before Adam sinned was the fact Satan was in the garden before they even fell. The garden was already corrupted with knowlege of evil.

Now, it doesn't matter if the story of the garden, the apple, ect..is literal or not...it's the truth that was being taught and it remains the same literal or not.

That truth is God was in charge. He planned that man would have knowledge and freewill. With that knowledge, man could do evil or good.
We can blame Satan, Adam or Eve, but we are missing the truth behind the story, literal or not....God had a better plan.

Armistead · Sep 24, 2008

Tissue said:
This is powerful stuff, Armistead, along with your commentary (which I neglected to quote only to keep my own post shorter).

I'm in an odd position. Logically, I'm UR. Theologically, I'm UR. Scripturally, I still have difficulty understanding other Biblical language (the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" bit) in a UR context.

Worst of all, as a ministerial student, I almost feel an obligation to, at the very least, leave this route unexplored. If nothing else, I have no plans to deliver a sermon on hell at any time in the future.

Fantastic commentary, Armistead.

It takes time to put it together, because we are unbiblical doctrines ingrained into our minds. I taught eternal hell for most of my life. I spent years using the same ET debate tactics used here against UR. Obvious, most Christians struggle greatly, not understanding why a loving God knowing that man would fall, would create anyway and toss most of mankind in hell. It eats at the soul of all but the most hardened christians.

Even when I accepted UR, I wouldn't admit it. It's scary. You know others
will call you a heretic. However, you find that 99% of them never even studied hell, just believed what was passed down.

I finally went to a debate UR against ET. Now there were pastors with more degrees than hair on both sides. UR so clearly won, it was obvious to all. The ET pastors basically left mad. With all their training, they simply could not respond. Many ET'ers left that day and became UR. I will try and find a copy of that debate. It's amazing. These UR Pastors challange any
group to open debate....but they now get no takers.

If you take the time to study both sides equally, side by side, putting all
past belief aside, UR will overwhelm you with truth. In fact, many ET pastors know it's true and more are stepping out daily.

Armistead · Sep 24, 2008

Hentenza said:
Hi All,

I asked a question back in post 6. Can someone shed some light?

This was my question when someone hinted at coming to know Christ after death. Anyone care to answer?

I gave you a list, but I will get into better detail tomorrow...gotta go to bed..

But rest assured as the bible tells us...every knee will bow and confess
Jesus Christ as Lord...Believe me, this is not God changing men into robots and making them fall and admit. Even if he did this, in their hearts they would be lying, because it would be forced worship. What glory can God get out of forced worhip...None, no more than a bully holding a helpless kid down.

No, they will pronounce him LORD, because he will be their LORD. They will bow and confess willingly, having a refined heart and true knowledge of Christ.

God's plan to reconcile all of man will come to pass...and heaven will begin. There will be true Joy, no more tears...we will not be robots in heaven with changed emotions and wiped out memories. All our loved ones will come to Christ.

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

Armistead said:
So it was God's plan to remain for all of humanity to remain in a garden. I guess the garden would increase in size as population increased.

You need to answer a few question to prove God wanted man in the garden forever.

Obvious, God knowing all knew Satan would fall, but created him anyway.

When Satan fell, why did God not destroy him right away,,,knowing what he could do?

Why didn't God take away his power, being the most powerful angel? Simply take away his power...and that was that, no evil.

And for what possible reason would God remove Satan from heaven and place him on earth with man with all this power?

Then why put the tree there in the first place..Not there, man doesn't eat and God knowing beforehand he would anyway.

You see God put all the pieces in place for man to fall. It was his plan and
you give Satan and man too much credit for having the power to ruin God's plan.

When we speak of having truth, a better way to describe it is this. Children don't have a real understanding of truth, even though they can be told no, because they lack real knowledge, they still act. Adam and Eve were basically children and they did not understand the true impact. Yes,
they knew God said no, but did not have the knowledge to understand WHY no. Like children, they had no real understanding. That's why Satan
easily tempted them...God already allowed evil in the garden, because he gave Satan entrance to it.

Adam and Eve did not have truth or understanding of God's plan. But it was obvious God's plan that man would have knowledge. In order for that to happen, he planned the fall of man. We can argue why...freewill, ect, but it was God's plan. Yes, they did not obey...God knew that beforehand...please stop blaming them. But not having knowledge of truth, God already had the remedy...He clothed them...already showing the salvation of Christ...and started working his plan for the ages.

You may feel God eternally damned you for just being born, but they truth is, God already saved you before you were born.

God had a better plan than a garden already ordained...the new heaven and earth...and the clear proof why the garden was flawed before Adam sinned was the fact Satan was in the garden before they even fell. The garden was already corrupted with knowlege of evil.

Now, it doesn't matter if the story of the garden, the apple, ect..is literal or not...it's the truth that was being taught and it remains the same literal or not.

That truth is God was in charge. He planned that man would have knowledge and freewill. With that knowledge, man could do evil or good.
We can blame Satan, Adam or Eve, but we are missing the truth behind the story, literal or not....God had a better plan.

Yawn....

Eternal hell vs eternal life
under construction

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a temporary place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

2.0
Resurrection to life or death

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)

The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)

Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάσανος
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδυνάω
odunaō
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
φλόξ
phlox
flox
From a primary φλέγω phlegō (to flash or flame); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καταψύχω
katapsuchō
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

Armistead said:
If you take the time to study both sides equally, side by side, putting all
past belief aside, UR will overwhelm you with truth. In fact, many ET pastors know it's true and more are stepping out daily.

What a Joke....
Ive SEEN your so called 'evidence' and it IS a joke....99% of it is taken completely out of context and what might actually be in context is exaggerated and distorted.

The unlearned ones your used to debating may be giving up, but you can rest yourself assured that the TRUE followers of Christ will never buy into this heresy.

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

When Satan fell, why did God not destroy him right away,,,knowing what he could do?

For the very same reason God didnt take Cains life to prevent him from killing Able....because He has given and permitted FREE WILL to CHOOSE.
This UR heresy removes free will entirely.

You folks joke about 'forced worship' but that is EXACTLY what you are pushing....that God will toss people who reject Him into fiery flames till they finally cave and worship Him to get out of their torment.
That isnt love or true worship....that is escaping torture....which is ALL your doctrine amounts to..

.

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

Armistead said:
I gave you a list, but I will get into better detail tomorrow...gotta go to bed..

But rest assured as the bible tells us...every knee will bow and confess
Jesus Christ as Lord...Believe me, this is not God changing men into robots and making them fall and admit. Even if he did this, in their hearts they would be lying, because it would be forced worship. What glory can God get out of forced worhip...None, no more than a bully holding a helpless kid down.

And ironically that is EXACTLY what YOU and UR preach....that this big bully god will just burn those who reject him till they cant take it anymore and are forced to worship him just to get away from the torturous flames.

The biggest joke here is that UR teaches EXACTLY what you folks accuse ETers of preaching....

.

Armistead · Sep 24, 2008

HuntingMan said:
What a Joke....
Ive SEEN your so called 'evidence' and it IS a joke....99% of it is taken completely out of context and what might actually be in context is exaggerated and distorted.

The unlearned ones your used to debating may be giving up, but you can rest yourself assured that the TRUE followers of Christ will never buy into this heresy.

Is a Yawn now a biblical answer, funny.

The evidence of the truth is becoming the hope and faith of thousands everyday....no longer serving God because they must out of fear, but out of love and respect.
Your answers are now just rants...let's stick with the bible. Does it bother you that so many here that were ET have now found the truth. We should
praise God that so many here have seen the evidence and stop following pagan teachings. It's also good to see so many ET'er at least now questioning their belief system....the truth will soon become clear to them.

That's all we can do, is show them the true gospel, the first gospel, that Christ will reconcile all mankind.

I think the angels in heaven sing everytime someone drops the pagan teaching of hell and gives God the glory for his grace.

Armistead · Sep 24, 2008

HuntingMan said:
For the very same reason God didnt take Cains life to prevent him from killing Able....because He has given and permitted FREE WILL to CHOOSE.
This UR heresy removes free will entirely.

You folks joke about 'forced worship' but that is EXACTLY what you are pushing....that God will toss people who reject Him into fiery flames till they finally cave and worship Him to get out of their torment.
That isnt love or true worship....that is escaping torture....which is ALL your doctrine amounts to..

.

That statement was so unbiblical, I'm not even going to respond.

SpiritDriven · Sep 24, 2008

Hentenza said:
Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?

Read ! Timothy 2

You will read about the ransom paid for all....to be testified in due time..... or the testimoney in its own eras.

Not just this era.

Peace

Tissue · Sep 24, 2008

I have placed HM on Ignore, and I highly encourage anyone who wants to have a reasonable discussion to do the same. He clearly cannot contribute anything intelligent to the matter at hand, choosing to entirely throw out interpretation of text without reason.

Rajni · Sep 24, 2008

Tissue said:
I have placed HM on Ignore, and I highly encourage anyone who wants to have a reasonable discussion to do the same. We clearly cannot contribute anything intelligent to the matter at hand, choosing to entirely throw out interpretation of text without reason.

Yes, I did that awhile go myself.

.

Rajni · Sep 24, 2008

Hentenza said:
Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?

Philippians 2:10-11: "... so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

.

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

Tissue said:
I have placed HM on Ignore, and I highly encourage anyone who wants to have a reasonable discussion to do the same. He clearly cannot contribute anything intelligent to the matter at hand, choosing to entirely throw out interpretation of text without reason.

Translation: "HM wont relent and the evidence he provides is exposing UR so we better not give him any more ammo"

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

chaela said:
Philippians 2:10-11: "... so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

.

Im sorry, where does that say 'and these shall be SAVED' ?

HuntingMan · Sep 24, 2008

That statement was so unbiblical, I'm not even going to respond.

Puhlease....its VERY obvious what UR teaches....even if it doesnt put it on the wrapper.

I think the angels in heaven sing everytime someone drops the pagan teaching of hell and gives God the glory for his grace.

Yeah...the pagan teaching of hell that Jesus Christ and His apostles taught

With all the UR threads...

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