Why

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

smaneck said:
The Prophet's example is vital too but difficult to ascertain because of the relative weakness of the sourcess.

Of course.

Yes, but Muslims do distinguish those revealed in Mecca from those revealed in Medina.

True, a point Will McCant's makes very persuasively: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2015-06-16/islamic-scripture-not-problem

Precisely.

Thanks for your clarifications and information.

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
What exactly do you mean by "Universalism" and unity?

As I am often accused of "incoherence" when I seek to speak with my own voice, I will just quote another.....

There are only two kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't.

Funny, paradoxical even, but it is essentially exactly what I mean.

amariselle · Jul 4, 2016

Fizzywig said:
As I am often accused of "incoherence" when I seek to peak with my own voice, I will just quote another.....

There are only two kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't.

Funny, paradoxical even, but it is essentially exactly what I mean.

So, just to clarify, do you believe that all religions should be united?

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
So, just to clarify, do you believe that all religions should be united?

No. There is the beauty of difference.

Perhaps you could give the thread "The Scope of Doctrines" a look.

amariselle · Jul 4, 2016

Fizzywig said:
No. There is the beauty of difference.

Perhaps you could give the thread "The Scope of Doctrines" a look.

Alright, I just wanted to ask for the sake of better understanding what you meant.

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
Alright, I just wanted to ask for the sake of better understanding what you meant.

Thank you. I do appreciate that.

simplegifts · Jul 4, 2016

Islam, a religion with an ideology attached to it or an ideology with an allah attached. Either way violent. When Christianity had an ideology of Church and State attached to it, it was violent. Thankfully joint Church and State are not in the teachings of Christ- allowed a reformation to take place.

How can a reformation take place in Islam when Mosque and State is a part of Mohammad's teachings?

Another difference between Islam and Christianity is that in Islam the texts are looked at as ongoing, continue to fight and subdue until nonbelievers are conquered. In Christianity much that is written is history. Christ's ongoing message - go and teach, love your neighbor and enemies..

Muslims believe Bukarhi to be trusted.

simplegifts · Jul 4, 2016

smaneck, So by telling the truth I am banned? I am not making up any of Mohammad's violent and weird teachings. They are right there for all to see. Which by the way the "radical" Muslims or sharia desiring Muslims are following.

The number of people following any ideology does not make it right. Look at the number of people who followed Hilter.

Deadworm · Jul 4, 2016

True, Muslims and professing Christians have committed atrocities over the centuries. All religions can be warped in the service of a heartless political agenda. The damning issue is Jesus versus Muhammad. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who abuse us. Muhammad was a bloodthirsty murderer. Muslim leaders are too silent about modern Muslim atrocities because of Muhammad's appalling example, especially as that is so often demonstrated in the Hadith, their authoritative collection of oral traditions about Muhamad's sayings and deeds that inspire violent jihad.
Check out this video for a small sample of what I mean:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...4DDF6817BBE424A94E714DDF6817BBE424A&FORM=VIRE

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

Deadworm said:
True, Muslims and professing Christians have committed atrocities over the centuries. All religions can be warped in the service of a heartless political agenda. The damning issue is Jesus versus Muhammad. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who abuse us. Muhammad was a bloodthirsty murderer. Muslim leaders are too silent about modern Muslim atrocities because of Muhammad's appalling example, especially as that is so often demonstrated in the Hadith, their authoritative collection of oral traditions about Muhamad's sayings and deeds that inspire violent jihad.
Check out this video for a small sample of what I mean:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...4DDF6817BBE424A94E714DDF6817BBE424A&FORM=VIRE

As I have sought to say before (I seem to remember being accused of speaking to fairies......), to equate/compare Jesus with Muhammad - given their respective place within the two Religions - is cross-eyed.

The Bible is the means through which the Word made flesh is revealed.

Muhammad (via the angel Gabriel) is the means through which the Word/God is revealed.

For me, the Word as Person ( as in Christianity ) theoretically has the advantage. Sadly, many Christians throw the advantage away, seemingly preferring the Word made Book.

smaneck · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
Where is this happening? I do know that many Christians are being killed by Islamists.

Iraq, Syria , Afghanistan.

Can you or provide links please? I haven't heard about thousands of Muslims being killed by Christians "right now", and I would like to know if that is true.[/QUOTE]

http://www.mintpressnews.com/do-the...-has-killed-4-million-muslims-or-more/208225/

amariselle · Jul 4, 2016

smaneck said:
Iraq, Syria , Afghanistan.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/do-the...-has-killed-4-million-muslims-or-more/208225/

This article is talking about how many Muslims the American Military has killed, not Christians killing Muslims.

smaneck · Jul 4, 2016

Deadworm said:
The damning issue is Jesus versus Muhammad. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who abuse us. Muhammad was a bloodthirsty murderer.

And that is where the distortions come in. If Muhammad was a bloodthirsty murderer then so was Moses, Samuel, and most of the other prophets in the Tanakh.

Muslim leaders are too silent about modern Muslim atrocities because of Muhammad's appalling example

Except that is as false as your first statement:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/muslim-clerics-condemn-terrorism_us_566adfa1e4b009377b249dea

https://www.cair.com/about-us/cair-anti-terrorism-campaigns.html

http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/

http://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...enounce-terrorism-though-the-media-ignores-it

, especially as that is so often demonstrated in the Hadith, their authoritative collection of oral traditions about Muhamad's sayings and deeds that inspire violent jihad.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Ahadith fall into three categories, sound, good and weak. That means they are not all authoritative. And what is authoritative to a Sunni is not to a Shi'ite. Even the ones considered sound were not compiled until hundreds of years after the Prophet's passing and from a historical standpoint are not reliable. But yes, the Prophet jihad. Jihad does involve acts of terrorism. These are the rules of engagement for a jihad:

:Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

But I suspect you have no interest in the truth of this matter.

smaneck · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
This article is talking about how many Muslims the American Military has killed, not Christians killing Muslims.

70% of the US military is Christian.

amariselle · Jul 4, 2016

smaneck said:
70% of the US military is Christian.

They may be nominally "Christian", that doesn't mean they actually are. And the word "Christian" did not come up in that article.

A true Christian obeys Christ.

Fizzywig · Jul 4, 2016

Always for me I try to look at individuals and not just look at what I would call the Block Vote. Here are the words of the Muslim Ziauddin Sardar, which were published in the "Observer", an English newspaper, soon after 9/11.......

Creating the Kingdom of God on earth, as it is in heaven, is the basic message of Islam. This is the true meaning of Jihad................Acts of terror are not Jihad. They violate the explicit word of God, Prophet Muhammad and the reasoned consensus of all believers. The greatest jihad is the war on injustice in one's own soul, the injustice that can conceive of terror tactics and lose all restraints and respect for the sanctity of a human life. Jihad is the reasoned struggle of each individual to work within the bounds of moral action, to extend the protection of justice equitably to every human being, irrespective of colour, creed or place of origin. Jihad is the obligation to make peace a lived reality for all human beings.................The faith I hold, the faith of Muslims, the justice we seek, is an obligation to promote and make real in each life freedom from tyranny, neglect, need, dearth and suffering. The justice we yearn for is the life blood of a humane society with dignity and freedom for all. It cannot be found by blasting innocents apart in an inferno of twisted metal and concrete. When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them. When the innocent suffer, their suffering is our own.

So I suppose we can INSIST that Mr Sardar has got it all wrong, that Islam is about war and terror etc etc etc. If that's what rocks our boat, so be it.

dlamberth · Jul 4, 2016

Dr. Omid Safi, Director of Duke Islamic Studies Center.:
"If the attack outside the Prophet's Mosque in Medina is by ‪#‎ISIS‬, let's say it loud: They are not Muslim.
Yes, I have been hesitant to get into the takfir game of deciding who is and who is not a Muslim. But if you blow up human beings, in Ramadan, outside the gate of he is a Mercy to all the Universes, you are not a Muslim."

BrianJK · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
They may be nominally "Christian", that doesn't mean they actually are. And the word "Christian" did not come up in that article.

A true Christian obeys Christ.

We so readily write off people who kill who claim Christianity as "not true Christians" but will lump people who kill who claim Islam as all together will all the other Muslims who don't.

amariselle · Jul 4, 2016

BrianJK said:
We so readily write off people who kill who claim Christianity as "not true Christians" but will lump people who kill who claim Islam as all together will all the other Muslims who don't.

Well, I don't do that in any case. I have never said all Muslims agree with the killing that is done in the name of Allah, quite the opposite actually.

I think it's high time we stopped making such broad generalizations and lumping everyone together in regard to ANY religion.

BrianJK · Jul 4, 2016

amariselle said:
Well, I don't do that in any case. I have never said all Muslims agree with the killing that is done in the name of Allah, quite the opposite actually.

I think it's high time we stopped making such broad generalizations and lumping everyone together in regard to ANY religion.

I agree. I didn't mean to imply any particular position for you... I didn't know your position. But it's rampant.

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