WHY?

This "black" stuff is ludacris. No one is "black". They're brown. This text is black..

Sorry for going off topic, LoL...
Anyways, I'm not really sure..people are starving all around the world. I guess it's because of Adam and Eve, but it seems a little silly to make people suffer for millions of years just because of two people..but, we're all sinners, so..*sigh* Maybe that's the reason..but we can't help that. It's human nature.

Timmy said:

helo there im timmy im young and still at school but i love god and i love jesus but why would god let black people staerve in africa if he is all powerful?

I thought jesus saved us because he loves us, what kind of lover gives you no food?

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People are starving all over the world, not just those in Africa.

As to why this is the Will of the Lord, we can speculate many reasons that may be true. For instance, encountering those in need, such as the homeless and hungry, gives us the opportunity to respond to their need in a godly way. We can offer them comfort that we may have in abundance. Additionally, many Africans worship false gods. This could be a direct revelation of God's justice upon their subversion of the Truth.

There are, I'm sure, many other reasons that God should allow this or bring it to pass yet that's all they are, speculations. In light of that we should not put a whole lot of stock in our guesses.

God bless

A lot of people in Africa are being starved by their governments. God allows people to be evil so we can see where we are without Him. And He gives us a job to do-give sacrificially to take care of the poor. I'm sure there are a lot of other complex reasons as well, ones we know nothing of, but the best thing we can do is give ourselves to the cause of healing their souls and their bodies as well.

You raised a really good question, by the way.

Timmy said:

helo there im timmy im young and still at school but i love god and i love jesus but why would god let black people staerve in africa if he is all powerful?

I thought jesus saved us because he loves us, what kind of lover gives you no food?

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colossi3: Hi Timmy - a valid, caring question. But it is unfair to God to
question his love for all mankind - after he created us:
Apostle John says in truth that "IS love." But our life of faith in Jesus Christ is lived by faith and not by sight.
Jesus did not come to correct the political wrongs of this temporary world but to save sinners to ETERNAL LIFE. Whatever we may think, God is just. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc all suffer untold misery under the rule of the prince of this world. He rules here - but not spiritually: he can destroy our bodies by starvation, murder, war, cancer, earthquake, flood -whatever calamities are common in this world, but he cannot destroy the soul of mankind.. He cannot send anyone to hell for all eternity.
Eternity is forever. Compared to that, our human life is but a few days of summer. Pray for the people in Africa that they may seek the face of Jesus and be found of him. He says, Come unto me all you who labor and are heavyladen and I will give you rest.
"If we have hope in this world only, we are of all men most miserable."
God's peace

My OPINION:

God put things in motion, and gave us power over them to make them better or to make them worse. This life is a learning experiance to help us find out what hurts us, and what makes us healthier. If our lives were perfect then we couldn't learn to improve our condition. What sence would it be for Someone to be able to gain all happiness if there was no such thing as a lack of happiness, or misourie? You can't have one without the other, if one doesn't exzist it just doesn't make sence.

If people can choose to make another person happy then they should be able to choose to make another person misurable or withhold happiness from them.

God created this world and us, and made it our show. If he took things back into his controle, then we wouldn't be able to learn the lesson he wants us to.

Growing is always painfull. But it is always very worth it at the end

First things first. Find a good spell checker. LOL! Before you get offended I'm just picking at you. Seriously though, "misourie?" Did that even look right to you?

explorerofmind said:

God put things in motion, and gave us power over them to make them better or to make them worse.

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Two questions. First, are you saying that God just started everything off with creation and then sits back and doesn't involve Himself? Secondly, while I certainly agree that we interact with our surroundings I'm not sure why you'd believe that we have the power to make things better or worse. Have you ever been involved in a bad situation in which you were powerless to bring about reconciliation?

This life is a learning experiance to help us find out what hurts us, and what makes us healthier.

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Umm...are you making this statement from a Christian perspective? What about glorifying God? Or is that what you mean by "makes us healthier?"

God created this world and us, and made it our show. If he took things back into his controle, then we wouldn't be able to learn the lesson he wants us to.

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This is completely unbiblical and I'm not aware of a single Christian church that espouses such a thing? From what extra biblical text did you glean this? Or, if you feel that this is something that the Bible espouses I'm curious how you would reconcile these passages:

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

All of Psalms 47

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.

Each one of these directly refutes your opinion that things are not in God's control.

God is sovereign. The mere thought that we are in control and God just sits back and watches is one that I would hate to even entertain, much less believe.

God bless

1. Sorry bout the spelling.

2. God involves himself when we exercise faith in him.

B. God has given us the ability to improve our condition or worsen it. If you need a biblicall exzamples: The tree of knowledge of good and evil, and Jesus Christ. We are given the ability to partake of both of them. I didn't say that we could take care of every situation alone.

3. Yes this involves Glorifying God.

4. (Matthew 10: 29) If it is god's will that the world should be in free motion then a sparrow falling is within it. I did NOT say it WAS NOT in his will that he lets things happen.
A father teaching his son to ride a bike can somewhat controle the situation, but he doesn't do the peddling for him. Man can eat better and live longer. It has been proven. it doesn't mean that if a man doesn't eat right that god considers his dying early wrong. God has set up laws. Even ones for our spiritual developement<-- Just some examples.

Act's 2: 23 Yes, even Christ was delivered into the hands of men according to god's will. This is what I'm saying.

I think the English language must be flawed. I can't spell write, and when I think I'm speaking clearly I'm not.

Thanks for wishing me blessings. I wrote that it was my oppinion for a reason. I've tried all of my oppinions to a certain degree. You can trust that MOST of them can't be proven Biblically wrong unless either what I say is twisted or what the Bible says is twisted.

PS: I don't give the whole story on my oppinions for a reason. I'd oppreciate it if no one tride to get much more out of me on this one. I do have more though.

Timmy said:

helo there im timmy im young and still at school but i love god and i love jesus but why would god let black people staerve in africa if he is all powerful?

I thought jesus saved us because he loves us, what kind of lover gives you no food?

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It is the result and consequence of original sin. God does not do anything to us to cause us suffering, we are a fallen race and sin let these things in the world, not God.

You see, we were created with gifts not to suffer or work for food and we lost those gifts in the fall never to have them again in this life but Jesus comes to suffer with us as the suffering servant, not as the glorified messiah, so all we really know is this; when we suffer we are closest to Jesus and most like him.

Timmy said:

helo there im timmy im young and still at school but i love god and i love jesus but why would god let black people staerve in africa if he is all powerful?

I thought jesus saved us because he loves us, what kind of lover gives you no food?

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It truly is saddening. All people of the world are witness to their suffering. Unfortunately the majority of the people of the world allow this to happen. The governments under which these people suffer remain in power despite the fact that those subjected to the government are starving. Some people try and combat the effects of the starving by sending donations or actually going to Africa to help with medical care and such. The reason these people are left to suffering is b/c the majority of the world populace does not do anything to try and rectify the situation...We are supposed to be doing unto others as we would do unto ourselves. Would we let ourselves go hungry? This situation really is not God's fault at all. Christ saved us because He loves us yes, but we are still expected to do our part as well. We are even warned about not feeding those who are hungry or not giving drink to those that are thirsty. We are supposed to be taking care of one another, and showing love for our brothers and sisters. We all make the choice everyday.

explorerofmind said:

1. Sorry bout the spelling.

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Seriously, I was just kidding.

2. God involves himself when we exercise faith in him.

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God ALWAYS involves Himself. Our exercising of faith is a result of His involvement. It is a result of His grace. You make it sound as if God can only exercise His Will if we, by having faith, give Him the power to do so. Sounds more like something out of a Frank Perretti novel than out of the Bible. God is sovereign over ALL things at ALL times, even when we lack faith. Our faith is not what makes God sovereign. He just is. He has always been. He is not limited by our faith. The Word Itself clarifies for us that He is faithful even when we are faithless (2 Tim 2:13).

B. God has given us the ability to improve our condition or worsen it. If you need a biblicall exzamples: The tree of knowledge of good and evil, and Jesus Christ. We are given the ability to partake of both of them. I didn't say that we could take care of every situation alone.

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If by "us" you mean Christians I would tentatively agree. However, it is upon regeneration we are given the moral ability to obey Him. Prior to that we are morally in bondage to our fallen lusts. Those who have not been regenerated, the carnal, are not free to obey the Law of God, nor do they desire it:

Romans 8:7,8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

4. (Acts 2: 23) If it is god's will that the world should be in free motion then a sparrow falling is within it. I did NOT say it WAS NOT in his will that he lets things happen.

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You make a serious theological error with this statement. The Word does not say that God "lets" the sparrow fall to the ground. It says nothing, not even a sparrow falling to the ground happens apart from the Will of God.

A father teaching his son to ride a bike can somewhat controle the situation, but he doesn't do the peddling for him.

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Let me clarify a few things. First, and foremost, to define the omnipotent sovereignty of God by analogizing Him to one of His creations is pointless. Nothing that we can do, or will do, is comparitive to God's sovereign control of His creation. Second, I am not saying that we don't interact with God's plan and that we are mindless robots. However, it is important to distinguish between the control we, as created beings, have over the circumstances we encounter and the sovereign control of the omnipotent, holy Creator of all things created. You seem to be placing the two on the same playing field.

Man can eat better and live longer. It has been proven. it doesn't mean that if a man doesn't eat right that god considers his dying early wrong. God has set up laws. Even ones for our spiritual developement

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All that is true. However, eating better in an effort to live longer doesn't change the eternal plan of God. You could eat a perfectly balanced diet and if it be God's Will that you die at age 13 you will.

Act's 2: 23 Yes, even Christ was delivered into the hands of men according to god's will. This is what I'm saying.

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The point is, that didn't happen by coincidence. God didn't just send His Son in the hopes that things would work our like He had ordained. They worked out the way He had ordained because God is sovereign over all things. This does not mean that we don't make decisions. It means that the decisions we make are all within the scope of God's sovereign control. No, He does not force our hand. He is, however, our Creator and He sovereignly orchestrated every event to bring His eternal Plan to fruition.

I think the English language must be flawed. I can't spell write, and when I think I'm speaking clearly I'm not.

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Actually, I think you mean "spell right." A better way to say that is "spell correctly." Again, I'm just kidding.

Thanks for wishing me blessings. I wrote that it was my oppinion for a reason. I've tried all of my oppinions to a certain degree. You can trust that MOST of them can't be proven Biblically wrong unless either what I say is twisted or what the Bible says is twisted.

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I'm sorry explorerofmind but most of what you've professed directly contradicts the nature of God and His revealed Word.

I'd oppreciate it if no one tride to get much more out of me on this one. I do have more though.

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So you want to give your opinion but not have anyone question you about it? I don't think a public messageboard is the best place to have that goal. Maybe a mirror?

God bless

Shelb5 said:

It is the result and consequence of original sin. God does not do anything to us to cause us suffering, we are a fallen race and sin let these things in the world, not God.

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Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'

You might want to rethink that.

Much of who we become and who God has ordained that we shall be is brought about by suffering. Our suffering is not something separate from the sovereign control of God. That is the very reason we are encouraged to embrace our suffering to see that the Lord Himself is using it to perfect us:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

God bless

Reformationist,

No, I don't need to rethink whether or not we should contribute evil to God.

I said that suffering is part of his plan but sin is why we suffer, God is not why we suffer.

Shelb5 said:

Reformationist,

No, I don't need to rethink whether or not we should contribute evil to God.

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Nor is that what I said. What I said, AND SHOWED FROM SCRIPTURE, is that suffering IS part of God's Plan because it is one of the means by which He conforms His children and executes His RIGHTEOUS wrath upon the wicked. Just because you are trying to respond to something I never implied does not mean that God does not bring about suffering to serve His purpose. The point is that we should strive to see suffering as a means to be conformed. Not that we should seek out situations where we would suffer but that when we are in situations where we are suffering it is most certainly God's Will that we encounter those situations and that we should understand that God is using those situations to make us perfect and complete, lacking nothing. I never said God did anything evil so try to refrain from presuming as much.

I said that suffering is part of his plan but sin is why we suffer, God is not why we suffer.

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Yes, we suffer because of our own sinfulness and the sinfulness of others. However, you cannot separate God's sovereign control of His creation from the situations we encounter.

God bless

Reformationist said:

Nor is that what I said. What I said, AND SHOWED FROM SCRIPTURE, is that suffering IS part of God's Plan because it is one of the means by which He conforms His children and executes His RIGHTEOUS wrath upon the wicked. Just because you are trying to respond to something I never implied does not mean that God does not bring about suffering to serve His purpose. The point is that we should strive to see suffering as a means to be conformed. Not that we should seek out situations where we would suffer but that when we are in situations where we are suffering it is most certainly God's Will that we encounter those situations and that we should understand that God is using those situations to make us perfect and complete, lacking nothing. I never said God did anything evil so try to refrain from presuming as much.


Yes, we suffer because of our own sinfulness and the sinfulness of others. However, you cannot separate God's sovereign control of His creation from the situations we encounter.

God bless

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I do not see why we have to argue about this, we agree on this point for the most part, we argue too much as it is, on the points in which we agree we should just agree and not argue over details.

I agree with you, nothing that happens is outside of God’s plan whether it be his permitting will or his ordaining will, he knows about it and allows it to happen for what ever his reasons are.

You might also want to check out the healing thread in this forum because we my agree on some points in there too.

1. I know you were kidding.

2. Yes, our exersizing of faith is a result of his involvement. But that's because: he gave us the ability to exersize faith. You assumed that I was talking something about us giving God power. I was talking about God giving us power. He simply when he was setting up the way things work made it so we could get more grace (help from him) by excersizing faith in him. Certainly you can think of scriptures that support that idea. I know I can.
B.Everything we are able to do in this life comes from god. Yes, abilility to follow god is lost when we are carnal. And when we are spiritualy minded we gain ability to serve god.

4. The truth is that that part of the word doesn't have any of the stuff you or I were talking about on the sparrow. I meant to say matthew 10: 29. It's fixed now. The scripture says: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." Nothing about 'will' in there. ( You were the first one to make a statement like that, though.) And they are very much correct. Nothing can happen in this world without God. Other than the place of the scripture being misquoted I see no theological error to what I was saying.

5. First of all, I don't know what anologyzing means. I'm sure it's in the dictionarry, but you can gesus how oetfn I inespct one of tsohe. However if it means compare, then I can tell you that Jesus himself used a lot of temporal things to compare with eternal things in his teachings. Since I can't compare anything I can or can't do to youur Idea of how god has controle over us, I suppose I don't understand it whatsoever. So I won't make any comment on it.

6. I'm tinhnig of larening mroe aoubt seplinlg. I know, you were just kidding

7. Ok I'll join you and everyone else in making comments, and asking questions to posts. *Don't I feel silly*

explorerofmind said:

1. I know you were kidding.

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Good.

2. Yes, our exersizing of faith is a result of his involvement. But that's because: he gave us the ability to exersize faith.

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He did not just give us the ability to exercise faith. He gave us the desire to exercise faith:

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will (desire) and to do (ability) for His good pleasure.

*bold text is my addition for interpretive clarity

He simply when he was setting up the way things work made it so we could get more grace (help from him) by excersizing faith in him.

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You completely contradict what grace is. If you get it because you do something then it's not grace, it's the wages of your works and debt of God's:

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

B.Everything we are able to do in this life comes from god. Yes, abilility to follow god is lost when we are carnal. And when we are spiritualy minded we gain ability to serve god.

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Once again you put the cart before the horse. Being carnal is the result of the Fall. Walking according to the Spirit, that is, being in the Spirit, is the result of being indwelt by the Spirit. We are creatures of our nature. The unregenerate sin because that is what they are, sinners by nature. The regenerate are a bit more complex because we have a new, regenerate nature that desires to serve the Lord in obedience yet we still retain fallen desires from which we are continually being sanctified.

4. The truth is that that part of the word doesn't have any of the stuff you or I were talking about on the sparrow. I meant to say matthew 10: 29. It's fixed now. The scripture says: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." Nothing about 'will' in there.

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Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.

That help now that there's something in there about "will?" If you have trouble understanding the writings in the KJV you might try the NKJV. "Will" is just a word and it is clearly expressed, even in the KJV.

Nothing can happen in this world without God. Other than the place of the scripture being misquoted I see no theological error to what I was saying.

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No misquote. Try again.

5. First of all, I don't know what anologyzing means. I'm sure it's in the dictionarry, but you can gesus how oetfn I inespct one of tsohe.

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An analogy is a when you make an inference that when two things agree with each other on one thing they will agree with each other in all other areas. For instance, you assume to define the wrath of God by defining your own fallen way of exhibiting wrath. So, the analogy makes the inference that because you are created in the image of God, His wrath is like yours. It is pointless and dangerous to a proper understanding of the Bible. Additionally, it is pointless to define post Fall man to pre Fall man. Pre Fall man enjoyed liberties and fellowship with God that post Fall man does not. To say that Adam was "free to choose" such and such means, in a biblical concept, that he chose free of any desire to rebel against the Lord. Fallen man, however, does not enjoy that same measure of freedom so to say that he is "free" as Adam was "free" is inaccurate. An example of analogizing would be to infer that man is just as free to make any and all moral decisions because Adam was free to make any and all moral decisions. In the example you give, that of a father teaching his son to ride a bike, the inference is made that the same relationship exists between earthly father and son as between Heavenly Father and created being. It's theologically dangerous to make such comparisons because it leads us to believe that because we have no real control over what happens God doesn't either.

God bless

" It's theologically dangerous to make such comparisons because it leads us to believe that because we have no real control over what happens God doesn't either."
It's not dangerous to make such a comparison if you're looking at the part of the anology I mean. It's you that's getting that god has no real controle out of it. I know better.

You make lots of assumptions about what I am saying, and about what the bible is saying.

Here, I got a story that show's how you use facts.

Hold on I'll go get it...

1. It is common knowledge that Jack built a house. It is that house which we are now discussing.

2. There are rumors that a good deal of malt—very probably stolen— was stored in the house. What lends plausibility to the report is the building of the house itself—by Jack. Why a house, if not to store the stolen malt?

3. It is said that the malt was eaten by rats, and in view of the high nutriment content of malt (see Appendix A for references to scholarly and scientific studies proving beyond a doubt that malt is nutritious), there is no good reason for doubting this report.

4. The rats may very possibly have been killed by a cat, as some believe, and there is certainly nothing intrinsically improbable in the event. On the contrary, studies made at the Rodent Institute of the University of So and So, etc. . . . The report that only one rat ate the malt is of course erroneous, since the consumption of such a large quantity of malt would require many years and probably a large number of rats.

5. That the cat was chased by a dog is only to be expected. Only a fanatic would question it.

6. The same applies to the dog's being tossed by a cow, though it is admittedly a less common event.

7. "At any rate" (a very useful expression) we can be reasonably certain that the cow was milked by a milkmaid—what other kind of maid could it have been?—and also (since there is no good reason to doubt it) that the milkmaid, whose name may have been Bertha, was wooed by a man all tattered and torn. There are unmistakable references in the newspapers of the time (or at most a generation later) to poorly dressed men known as "tramps" roaming parts of the country. There can therefore be little doubt that Bertha was engaged in a passionate public wooing.

8. The exact date of Bertha's marriage to her tatterdemalion lover is not known, though it may have been some time late in January 1858. Certainly the court records of the time are silent on any earlier or later marriage.

9. Though there is no direct evidence that Bertha was mistreated by the man who wooed her so passionately, there is every evidence of cruel neglect both in the proven fact that Bertha apparently had no house to live in (at least there is no record of her having a house in the county archives) and in the character of the man who married and abused her.

It will hardly be necessary to point out to the student the solid advantage of such little touches as "the exact date . . ." in No. 8. Since no date at all is known, it is perfectly true to say that the exact date is not known, implying that an approximate date is known: "it may have been in January 1858"—true again, perfectly true—it may also have been in September 1902 or May 1320. Again, if there is no evidence whatever that Bertha was mistreated (or even that she existed), it is both shrewd and correct to say that there is no direct evidence, implying, while not saying, that there is plenty of indirect evidence.

Let the student check the above nine points for evidence. There is none! We have given the world a suffering Bertha and her brutal spouse without having to prove a thing.

"Sounding Brass," CWHN 11:495-98

BY THE TIME YOU'RE DONE WITH YOUR THINKING YOU'RE WAY OFF FROM ANYTHING THE FACTS THAT WERE STATED MEAN!