Why?

[Lee Fey]

Why does God condemn people to an eternity in Hell rather than just erase them outright? Why is it any more loving to cause someone to suffer for eternity than to make sure they don't feel anything anymore?

 

[Theophorus]

God does not condemn to hell, but rather hell is the perception of the soul in the presence of God. If we do not love God then his presence is like a burrning fire, or torment to us, but for those that love God it is an ecstasy.

 

[jbarcher]

Hm, the above is interesting.

But this goes back, I think, to maybe before Johnathan Edward's argument about the severity of the offense rising with the dignity of the offended. One might merely be killed for insulting a king who has conferred great dignity upon himself, however, when it gets to an infinite Being of infinite dignity and so on, one really wonders whether or not any finite duration of time is sufficient to match infinity. At least, that's my question, Does a potential infinite (finite duration of time) really compare to an actual infinite (infinite severity of offense) in infinitude?

So, my answer is that it's a matter of justice. OBVIOUSLY we don't want people to suffer; neither does God (try Ezek. 18:32 I think it is). But, maybe there is an error that should be first corrected: God is not merely love. The holy and God-fearing person does not act merely on the basis of love; holy love by definition has boundaries and fences which it must respect in order to retain the title of holy love--for instance, one cannot fornicate in the name of holy love; that would be a contradiction in terms. But supposing that God is just. Are His commands, verdicts, statements not also just? (For those who would use the cross to say that God is not just, I have a reply ready for that.) But, as it is getting late, I shall go off before entering into the tired mind and risk heresy.

 

[Theophorus]

Here is another way to look at it. God sacrificed his dignity, or left his high estate, to dignifiy man, by becoming flesh. In this life man seperated themselves from Christ through their sins, by nailing him to a cross.

For those who sought truth and virtue and release from captivity, his words and "being" were a comfort and blessing, but for those that were completly steeped in sin, his presence even brought out the worst sinfulness. It is the state of sin that is hell, the bondage of it. Now in this life, and even more so in the resurection to come. Hence God's mercy towards Adam and Eve in there expulsion, that they should not live forever in a sinful state.

 

[Dmckay]

Why does God condemn people to an eternity in Hell rather than just erase them outright? Why is it any more loving to cause someone to suffer for eternity than to make sure they don't feel anything anymore?

If your question is an honest one it deserves the time of an honest answer. One poster mentioned the view of Jonathan Edward's argument about the severity of the offense rising with the dignity of the offended. This does have merit, especially when coupled with the fact that the judge (Jesus) is the one who offered himself to pay the penalty for their sins.

A second factor has to do with the nature of God. His divine attributes are what makes Him God. Of these attributes we can discern very little from our finite perspective, however, perhaps an illustration from Scripture might help. God is completely HOLY—this is that He is completely free of and separated from all manner of sin. Another of His attributes is Justice—not only is He free of and separated from sin, but His nature requires that He must punish sin.

The prophet Isaiah in chapter 6 records his being taken into the presence of God. He reports seeing the angels before the Throne eternally crying, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of Hosts" Isaiah's immediate response was to fall to the ground in the presence of his Holy God crying, "woe unto me for I am undone" He was overcome by the sense of his sin and unholyness in the presence of a Holy God. Allowing unsaved sinners into God's presence for eternity would be an unjust form of eternal torment. The lake of fire was prepared not for sinners, but rather for Satan. Sinners separated from the presence of a Holy God in the Lake of Fire is less of a punishment than spending eternity in God's presence.

Lastly, in Romans 9:18ff we read, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use."

This meaning, God is totally sovereign in deciding who He is going to save and who He is going to consign to the Lake of Fire. He made us, He paid the price, He alone has the right to decide. God is just as glorified by rightly condemning a sinner to the Lake of Fire as He is by Graciously saving a sinner and making him/her a child of God. He ALONE has the power and Right to decide.

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Lee Fay,

Greetings. Lee Fay wrote:

"Why does God condemn people to an eternity in Hell rather than just erase them outright? Why is it any more loving to cause someone to suffer for eternity than to make sure they don't feel anything anymore?"

Many people believe in the concept of immortal souls going to heaven or hell at death, (with many variations in details), but this is not taught in the the Bible, but has been introduced from Greek and other philosophies. Some use marginal or obscure verses in an attempt to support this theory. All of these theories ignore or erode the Bible teaching of the Resurrection, based on the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The Bible clearly teaches that man returns to the dust. Some, not all, are resurrected at Christ's return, some of these to everlasting life, and others of these to condemnation. These wicked who are condemned at the judgment will suffer and then return to death and destruction, that is they will suffer the second death. The subject is large, but a brief survey could help to lay a basis for this.

The sentence upon Adam for disobedience was

Genesis 3:19 (KJV): "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

God does not say dust is thy body and immortal is thy soul, and unto dust shall your body go, but your immortal soul, the real you, your consciousness, will go to heaven or hell. God says "dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return". God's justice and mercy necessitates that he would not allow immortal sinners. Adam and Eve were excluded from the garden "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22-24(KJV).

The following shows that the dead faithful are asleep in the dust until the resurrection. This verse also shows that not all will be resurrected at Christ's return, only "many". The word "asleep" (or "sleep" used extensively in the NT) is a beautiful figure indicating that their next conscious moment after death is when they are resurrected. In actual fact they have descended back to the dust.

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): "2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Mark 9:43,44 alludes to the Valley of Gehenna, where both fire and worms destroyed the rubbish and also it appears that the bodies of some of the criminals were cast there. The idea of the fire and worms of gehenna is a symbol of the complete destruction of those who are rejected. Do those who teach hell torments believe that there will be immortal worms eating away at their immortal souls and bodies for eternity? Fire burns and destroys.

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV): "43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Matthew 10:28 (KJV): "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The two alternatives taught in the Bible are perishing or everlasting life:

John 3:14-16 (KJV): "14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

There are many other Scriptures that teach that the punishment of the wicked will be death and destruction:

Galatians 6:8 (KJV): "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Matthew 7:13 (KJV): "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat :"
Philippians 3:19 (KJV): "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"
Matthew 3:12 (KJV): "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Romans 8:13 (KJV): "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Romans 6:21-23 (KJV): "21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Christian Dude]

All I can pinpoint is that God is righteous and Almighty.... but He does not send us to Hell...

An eternal punishment of torment is not brought on us by God, but by ourselves... we have a chance to choose Him...
but for those that don't, they have condemned themselves already...

[bible]John 3:15-18[/bible]

 

[BBAS 64]

God does not condemn to hell, but rather hell is the perception of the soul in the presence of God. If we do not love God then his presence is like a burrning fire, or torment to us, but for those that love God it is an ecstasy.

Good Day, Theophorus

Does every thing that God does or does not do come down to what we think God's love should be like? How was God's love expresed to the profits of Bahl in the fight with God's profit?

I would like to pick up where Dmckay left off, Great post by the way Brother.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So, to the question why. God is long suffering to those who are fitted to destuction so that he can make known His "riches" and power to those whom had been prepared to glory.

The vessels of wrath are use full to the creator in that he is able to show things to those who are not.

Do you think that God loves the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Theophorus]

...

Do you think that God loves the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?

Peace to u,

Bill

Yes, for here in is love, not that we loved God but, but that he loved us.
We are all vessels of wrath fit for destruction.

 

[onlybygrace]

My own question regarding hell is posed as a hypothetical situation: A young man aged 17 decides that he does not want anything to do with God. Tragically, he dies. Assuming that the age of reason is around 12 for this situatoion (meaning he was too young to decide for God fully before then), this young man lived 5 years in rebellion to God. I understand that we are born sinful, but this man actively chose life apart from God for only 5 years. Now he must suffer eternally in hell. Maybe it's my lack of biblical understanding, but the God of love I have come to know would just end this man's existence,instead of eternal torment for 5 years of rebellion.

Another question: God is the source of all life, so life apart from Him would mean death/non-existence. If the devil and the lost burn in hell forever, wouldn't that mean that sin is eternal? The natural reaction to being cut off from the source of life would be death, or so I thought. God would have to actively sustain their lives in order for them not to perish.

 

[Unnamed Servant]

My own question regarding hell is posed as a hypothetical situation: A young man aged 17 decides that he does not want anything to do with God. Tragically, he dies. Assuming that the age of reason is around 12 for this situatoion (meaning he was too young to decide for God fully before then), this young man lived 5 years in rebellion to God. I understand that we are born sinful, but this man actively chose life apart from God for only 5 years. Now he must suffer eternally in hell. Maybe it's my lack of biblical understanding, but the God of love I have come to know would just end this man's existence,instead of eternal torment for 5 years of rebellion.

Another question: God is the source of all life, so life apart from Him would mean death/non-existence. If the devil and the lost burn in hell forever, wouldn't that mean that sin is eternal? The natural reaction to being cut off from the source of life would be death, or so I thought. God would have to actively sustain their lives in order for them not to perish.

I don't think the subject of annihilation can be tackled more biblically than by John Piper in this excerpt from one of his sermons:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/92/061492.html[/url]]

Imagine God meeting Adolf Hitler at the judgment day and saying: "For all your arrogance and unbelief and hatred and for all the torture and misery that you brought on millions of people my judgment of you is that from now on you will cease to exist. You will feel nothing." And if you think that would be a terrible thing for Adolf Hitler (or anyone else) ask yourself if you were miserable during any of the thousands of years that you did not exist before you were born. The pain you experienced for not being born would be the pain Hitler experiences if he ceased to exist, none at all.

But the main problem with the view that unbelievers simply go out of existence is that the Bible teaches that those who do not trust in Christ will be punished with eternal suffering. In other words, annihilation leads the church away from Biblical truth. And that always hurts people and dishonors God.

When the Bible says, "Behold the severity of God," we should do that. And the severity of God includes the truth about hell as endless suffering. In the chapter I wrote about this issue in the new book on missions, I dealt with sixteen different passages of Scripture.3 It is not an isolated doctrine.

It is a profound and dreadful reality. To speak of it lightly, or not to speak of it at all, or to speak of it in a way that changes suffering into feeling nothing, simply proves that we do not grasp its horror. I know of no one who has overstated the terrors of hell. We can scarcely surpass the horrid images Jesus used. "Weeping and gnashing of teeth,"4 "their worm shall not die" (Mark 9:48); "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12; Mark 9:43); "eternal fire" (Matthew 25:41); "the hell of fire" (Matthew 18:9); "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46); "anguish in the flame" (Luke 16:24). The point of all these is that we are meant to shudder. We are meant to tremble and feel dread. We are meant to recoil from the reality. Not by denying it but by fleeing from it into the arms of Jesus, who died to save us from it.

Revelation 14:11 is probably the most graphic New Testament statement of the eternal suffering of the unrepentant. "The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day or night." Torment for ever and ever. The endless suffering of unrepentant sinners is a reality taught in Scripture and therefore good for us to know about.

I want to close with a very solemn warning. I'll simply use the words of Jesus: "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire" (Matthew 18:8).

I urge you to follow a process of thought about the Bible that is the reverse of the one common today. Instead of coming to the Bible and saying, "I feel that endless suffering cannot be just, and so the Bible cannot be teaching it," rather say, "Since the Bible teaches it, it must be just and therefore, O how infinitely dreadful sin must be! How infinitely blameworthy it must be to treat the glory of God with contempt! How infinite must be the insult to God when we do not trust his promises! What infinite beauty and glory and purity and holiness God must have, that endless suffering is a just and fitting punishment for disobeying his word! Annihilationism reduces sin from high treason to a misdemeanor. Hell is meant to fill us with awe at the glory we have scorned.

And it is to fill us with wonder that the death of one man--the God-man, Jesus Christ--could bear the infinite penalty as a substitute for everyone who repents and trusts in him. Hell is an echo of the glory of God. It reveals the greatness of the glory that has been rejected and the greatness of Jesus' suffering because he bore that hell for all who believe.

 

[jbarcher]

My own question regarding hell is posed as a hypothetical situation: A young man aged 17 decides that he does not want anything to do with God. Tragically, he dies. Assuming that the age of reason is around 12 for this situatoion (meaning he was too young to decide for God fully before then), this young man lived 5 years in rebellion to God. I understand that we are born sinful, but this man actively chose life apart from God for only 5 years. Now he must suffer eternally in hell. Maybe it's my lack of biblical understanding, but the God of love I have come to know would just end this man's existence,instead of eternal torment for 5 years of rebellion.

Another question: God is the source of all life, so life apart from Him would mean death/non-existence. If the devil and the lost burn in hell forever, wouldn't that mean that sin is eternal? The natural reaction to being cut off from the source of life would be death, or so I thought. God would have to actively sustain their lives in order for them not to perish.

Are sinners sin? If not, how does the infinite duration of the life of unsaved souls lead to sin being eternal? Can the infinite duration not be inherent in the souls, meaning that God does not have to "actively sustain" them?

I don't have time to deliberate on the severity of sin, but it seems to me that you have a concrete hierarchy of sin--a presupposition of yours (one among others) seems to be that the ones on the lower rungs SHOULD BE dismissed or that a shorter period of time SHOULD BE dismissed. I would be curious to hear your criteria for determining the periods of time and severities of sins.

 

[visionary]

Sin is consumed, and if the sinner is still entangled in the sin, he too will be consumed.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

In that day, when the Lord returns, if you are not prepared to stand before God, the consuming fire, then

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

If you are prepared to stand before God, washed by the blood of the Lamb, baptized by the Holy Spirit, living the new life found in Messiah, prepared by His Word for this day because you have been baptized with fire, you will be changed from mortal to immortal to live with the Lord for all eternity when He returns to gather you home.

Psalm 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Baptism by fire needs to be understood in the context of what God is preparing His people for. God is preparing His people to be with Him forever. As a God of consuming fire, it is important that we are baptized by the fire, so that we can have a taste of what it is like to be before a Holy Consuming Fire God.

Isaiah 33:14 "the sinners of Zion are afraid, fearfulness hath surpassed the hyprocrites, who amoung us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who amoung us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

It should be the hope of all believers to be able to stand in that day and say “this is my God, and I shall dwell with Him forever in the devouring fire.” As the next verse of Isaiah 33 indicates, it takes the upright, believing saint to walk in the devouring fire with God.

Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

We need to prepare ourselves to meet the Lord when he returns. We need to understand that God is real and a consuming fire. Since God has not been presented in this light, it is important that you gain a imagery of reality that has not been approached by but a few writers like Paul.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Ps 66:12 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

 

[Rafael]

My own question regarding hell is posed as a hypothetical situation: A young man aged 17 decides that he does not want anything to do with God. Tragically, he dies. Assuming that the age of reason is around 12 for this situatoion (meaning he was too young to decide for God fully before then), this young man lived 5 years in rebellion to God. I understand that we are born sinful, but this man actively chose life apart from God for only 5 years. Now he must suffer eternally in hell. Maybe it's my lack of biblical understanding, but the God of love I have come to know would just end this man's existence,instead of eternal torment for 5 years of rebellion.

Another question: God is the source of all life, so life apart from Him would mean death/non-existence. If the devil and the lost burn in hell forever, wouldn't that mean that sin is eternal? The natural reaction to being cut off from the source of life would be death, or so I thought. God would have to actively sustain their lives in order for them not to perish.

Perhaps there is something about the existence of evil and the conditions it gives in God's creation that prevents it from ever being destroyed completely. We do not know this yet, but are told that we will know as we are known when we see the Lord and are like Him.
Whatever judgment God makes towards your hypothetical situation, no matter how sympathetic we are towards the person, God's judgment has to be perfect. He is the only One that has such power to give life and then direct its perpetuity. I trust He is who He says that He is, and those that are in the situation you have hypothetically set up will be given the full benefit of God's mercy and love before He performs judgment. We do not have the full story as men, but do have clever imaginations that try and put God in a situation where He may appear unfair.....it just is not going to happen, so cast down any such doubt or fear that God would be guilty of injustice towards a creature of His own hand.

 

[Theophorus]

Another question: God is the source of all life, so life apart from Him would mean death/non-existence. If the devil and the lost burn in hell forever, wouldn't that mean that sin is eternal? The natural reaction to being cut off from the source of life would be death, or so I thought. God would have to actively sustain their lives in order for them not to perish.

Only by grace,

you pose some good questions. Please exuse my use of the pronoun "you" as my answer is not directed personally.

God is not the author of death or annihilation. The definition of life and death is wrapped up in the concept of existence. This is not biblical, nor traditional.
If man was confident of his non existence after death, then the majority do not live true to that belief, neither in regards to others or to themsleves. For most it is inconceivable. So death becomes something to be "worshiped" or contemplated, or forgotten and put away, but the question always looms in our minds, " why have I been made thus", or why am I here?" Does anyone honestly, and I mean honeslty think that it is possible that they will cease to exist?

If you think about it, that position negates the concept of love. and the only motive for existing is hedonism. Or pride sets in and one might think they have a chance at imortality because of their faith. Faith in what? That we might not cease to exist? Think about it, for if you are a Christian, then "you" should have started to cease to exist upon that acceptance, and if not, you should exist to your fullest until it all just ends. If our faith is in existence only, then we have missed the point.

 

[mikesw]

I'm still trying to figure out this issue of whether there exists a firey eternal state for the typical individual unsaved person.

Matt 25 talks about an eternal fire for nations that don't act in accord with the knowledge of Christ. But I haven't found a scripture that addresses the typical unsaved person in the same manner.

The scripture seems to support more the concept of a point of final destruction that seems to prohibit that person from having everlasting conscienciousness. (Peter's epistles talk about the destruction of the ungodly for example.)

I've sorted out the scriptures on destruction and fires on my website. But I don't have a conclusion yet.

 

[Lee Fey]

This is specifically to address way back to trevor, whom denies the existence of hell. Christ specifically talked about Heaven and Hell when he addressed the Pharisees, who did not believe in the resurrection either.

He told them that in heaven, we are all spiritual beings, like angels, and thus there is no marriage. Which means we will be spiritual. At the end of the age, God will give us back our bodies, so that we will have material form once again.

Now, if we were to follow the sleeping idea, that Jesus should not have told the thief that today they will be together in paradise, for he'd be lying, and God doesn't ever lie.

There are just so many things when it comes to heaven and hell, specifically like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, that Jesus said, one cannot simply attribute them to influence from Greek or Roman mythology.

 

[reformedfan]

people don't stop sinning in hell, which is a real place or Christ is a liar.

 

[Peter A.V.]

Why does God condemn people to an eternity in Hell rather than just erase them outright? Why is it any more loving to cause someone to suffer for eternity than to make sure they don't feel anything anymore?

God is righteous altogether,his ways are past finding out.God chose everything to produce the most amount of Good.If the torment of the cries of the unregenerate stopped,then the saved in heaven would soon be tempted as Satan was,because they forgot what it was like to possibly go to hell.Those cries are predominantly,however for the glory of God.He gets all of the praise and the glory.In the book of revelations it is not the praise of God's tender mercy,it is not the praise of his mercy,but it is the praise of his righteous judgements upon evil.God is righteous in all that he does.Who are we to judge God just because we don't understand him.God made the world,he set the boundaries,we must oblige.We need to trust him,not question him,as if he is indeed up to evil.We must judge righteously,and not according to our own standards.I am a fallen man,and if I was to punish someone eternally,there may not be pure motives in the process but selfish revenge.God is totally just in all his thoughts,and actions,after all he is God and has the right to do as he sees fit or pleases him,for it is the most amount of God that will be produced in his infinite wisdom.Just believe his word and give him glory,and leave the ruling up to him.He knows exactly what he is doing.All that he does is Holy,just and righteous and good alltogether.Give him all the glory.

 

[Peter A.V.]

people don't stop sinning in hell, which is a real place or Christ is a liar.

Good point,anyone that does not repent at what he or she has done is virtually recommitting the offence and so becomes twice the child of hell he or she once was.
The heart is desparately wicked,who can know it.Imagine the pride to blame God for thier own sins,despicable.God will have the last laugh,sad to say.
Even the unbeliever upon the earth is much more wicked than one can imagine.Given the time and the circumstances and the security,we would all become Hitlers or worse.Mankind is as selfish as they can possibly be.The only reason they don't do certain sins is because they are too selfish in another area and so no credit to them what soever.