Why would Jesus..

Mandevar · Feb 1, 2006

This is one of the primary obstacles stopping me from ever believing in God. The problem of evil is too much for me. I couldn't imagine a being with infinite power would allow children to suffer.

Even the natural disasters. If God loves us so much, why would he create something that can potentially kill us and that we have no control over?

Galilean · Feb 1, 2006

God was looking the other way when he made some people.

Dragons87 · Feb 1, 2006

Mandevar said:
This is one of the primary obstacles stopping me from ever believing in God. The problem of evil is too much for me. I couldn't imagine a being with infinite power would allow children to suffer.

Even the natural disasters. If God loves us so much, why would he create something that can potentially kill us and that we have no control over?

God isn't too concerned about physical suffering. He cares for something deeper, something atheists ignore the existence of - suffering of the soul.

Jesus said: "And have no fear of those who put to death the body, but are not able to put to death the soul. But have fear of him who has power to give soul and body to destruction in hell." Matthew 10:28

There is much logic to this. Many people may have perfect health, perfect wealth, perfect stability, but spiritually they can still be very lost. That's why we want more, and more, and more, even in relative stability, to try to satisfy our inner emptiness. If you have inner peace and an infinite source of strength, how can external circumstances, no matter what they are, harm you?

And only God can provide that inner stability.

Deren · Feb 1, 2006

greeneyedgirl said:
that supposedly died for our sins out of love, forgiveness, and compassion allow eight million children to be born each year with a serious genetic birth defect.

Your assertion implies an ignorance of what Jesus' mission was to accomplish in behalf of mankind. For it had nothing to do with wiping clean from the world defects and derelicts, murder and mayhem, whackos and witches. Jesus died in order that mankind might be forgiven of its sin, or that which brought all of the aforementioned into the world.

And further more, why would he allow several hundred thousand or more children to suffer from the sins of their parents?

Maybe because those children are committing the same sins and their parents did.

And if that isn't enough to chew on, why would he allow 20,000 to 40,000 children to starve to death every single day?

Once again, Jesus didn't die to rid the world of starvation.

Why would an omnipotent and omniscient God, that is also benevolent, willingly allow innocent children to suffer or, in many cases, die prematurely?

Who says they're innocent, especially since "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God?"

God cannot be all powerful, all knowing, and have a passion to do good while also allowing the mass suffering of children.

Why can't he be?

And for the record, I don't buy into God works in mysterious ways either. That's such a cop out...Christians and Pastors alike love to teach what God wants, feels, needs, and expects out of us, but when they don't have a good explanation, they explain it with God works in mysterious ways.

And of course you're denial that God works in mysterious ways is so much more substantive than an appeal to the fact that finite humans beings cannot always discern the infinite purpose and plan of God, now isn't it?

Caylin · Feb 1, 2006

Vedant said:
I don't know.

This maybe the most honest answer I've ever seen on this forum.

simpleton · Feb 1, 2006

I'd hate to hear Pat Robertson's answer to the OP.

greeneyedgirl · Feb 1, 2006

Adiya said:
Wow.

First: WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION GOD'S LOVE FOR MY CHILD?
What? You don't believe you did? Well let me remind you.

Second:
What makes you think your body is so perfect?
What makes you think your standard for perfection is the one God intended for all mankind?
What makes you think that a child, an innocent chid, born special... is somehow loved less by God?

I wish I could meet you face to face.
Would I slap you for your ignorance?
No. I'd just bring my little boy along so you could talk to him, and he could hug you with that great big love that swells up in him so much that he just has to let it out. Then I'd like you to tell me again, that God didn't love him enough to make him perfect like you.

I forgive you.
Now go forgive yourself.

You have completely taken me out of context. Whether God exists, whether or not he loves disabled children, and regardless if your child is disabled, there are 8 million children born with a disability every year. This begs the question, did God allow it or does God not exist, that's the real question.

And where in my OP did I claim to be perfect? Actually, I was born with a birth defect. I'm asking this question, at least in part, because of my defect and the problems it has caused in my life. You know nothing about me, my life, or my disability. There is nothing I need to forgive myself for, there is absolutely nothing in my OP that insults you or your family.

I am sorry that your child is disabled. On the other hand, just because you have a disabled child does not mean this is not a sincere and valid question. I think you need to work on your sensitivity.

greeneyedgirl · Feb 1, 2006

greeneyedgirl said:
that supposedly died for our sins out of love, forgiveness, and compassion allow eight million children to be born each year with a serious genetic birth defect.

deren said:
Your assertion implies an ignorance of what Jesus' mission was to accomplish in behalf of mankind. For it had nothing to do with wiping clean from the world defects and derelicts, murder and mayhem, whackos and witches. Jesus died in order that mankind might be forgiven of its sin, or that which brought all of the aforementioned into the world.

I find it amusing that we agree Jesus forgave mankind for our sins but yet you deny it was out of love and compassion. I'd be interested in hearing why you think that Love and compassion had nothing to do with it.

deren said:
Maybe because those children are committing the same sins and their parents did

Who says they're innocent, especially since "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God?"

I'd be interested in hearing how a fetus committed any sin?

deren said:
Once again, Jesus didn't die to rid the world of starvation.

Well we agree on this although I'd like to point out that Jesus supposedly fed thousands with a few loafs of bread and a couple of fish. God supposedly let manna pour form the sky to feed Moses and his clan to avoid starvation. I dunno, but it just seems odd to me, you know.

And if God works in mysterious ways, then it's best if Christians stop teaching his ways, that in itself is a contradiction.

Yet all of this is trying to twist the original question. We aren't talking solely of Jesus' ministry on Earth, I am asking why God created starvation in the first place? Why, since he is all-knowing and all-powerful, did he create conditions where many children would be born into this world and know nothing but pain and misery in the short time they live?

FadingWhispers3 · Feb 1, 2006

I think it is saner to ask what can we do to mend the pain rather than to try and answer the question of why God (if one exists and is good) would allow or cause this or that. Because, we have no control over the actions of God, or whether or not he exists, or what manner of God he is, but we do have some measure of control in other things.

I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Sometimes it's more comforting to believe that all there exists is a universe that does not care one way or the other, but that individual human beings may.

"" · Feb 1, 2006

greeneyedgirl said:
I am sorry that your child is disabled.

Why? What made you assume that my child deserves pity? Do you want pity for your disability? Don't be sorry for him, and don't be sorry for me. I'm not sorry for who he is. I love who he is, and who he is is not in his body. His body is merely a home for his soul.

On the other hand, just because you have a disabled child does not mean this is not a sincere and valid question.

My child being disabled has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of your question, but my response, involving him, is applicable to your question. Your question assumes that God doesn't love some humans enough to make them perfect and whole like others.

I think you need to work on your sensitivity.

Actually, I would suggest that it is you who needs to work on your sensitivity. Perhaps you could step outside of your own box, and take a look around. You're not the only person born different. Since when does difference deserve pity? Don't feel sorry for my child. Don't feel sorry for me. Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

When you learn to love and accept who you are, then maybe it will be easier for you to stop blaming God for not loving you enough to make you like those that you think are better than yourself.

In reality, flesh is temporary. What you do with your inner being, (soul) is far more important. There are many beautiful people (according to societal standards) who are horrid and ugly inside. There are also some people born differently who are horrid and ugly inside. To develop beauty within, one must begin with LOVE. Life is a gift. Every moment you can breathe is a gift. Every moment you can think and react, is a gift. Some cannot breathe without machines. Some cannot think or react. Some are treated as if they cannot think, simply because they are different. If you want to make a difference in the way the world perceives you, then start on the inside. If you want to know why God allowed you to be different than others, start by getting to know Him. If you want to be loved, start by loving yourself.

19 I remember my affliction and my wandering,
the bitterness and the gall.
20 I well remember them,
and my soul is downcast within me.
21 Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:
22 Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, "The LORD is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him."
25 The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.
28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the LORD has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31 For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to the children of men.
Lamentations 3.19-33

When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide.
"Doth God exact day-labor, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"On His Blindness" by John Milton[/FONT]

SimplyMe · Feb 1, 2006

Adiya said:
Why? What made you assume that my child deserves pity? Do you want pity for your disability? Don't be sorry for him, and don't be sorry for me. I'm not sorry for who he is. I love who he is, and who he is is not in his body. His body is merely a home for his soul.

Who said that your child deserves pity? I didn't see it in that post. I don't doubt that you're not sorry for who he is but can you honestly say that you don't ever wish that he was whole? Wouldn't it make your life and his easier? Just because someone tries to sympathize with you, someone that knows how difficult it can be, does not mean they are trying to offer you pity or that you should regret anything.

Adiya said:
My child being disabled has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of your question, but my response, involving him, is applicable to your question.

So why didn't you supply that answer? Why instead did you attack the question?

Adiya said:
Your question assumes that God doesn't love some humans enough to make them perfect and whole like others.

No, the question assumes nothing of the sort. The question asks how an all-knowing and benevolent God can allow some of the suffering that exists to take place. It doesn't presume anything about God loving anyone less, instead it questions whether God is loving at all -- if such a God exists.

Adiya said:
Actually, I would suggest that it is you who needs to work on your sensitivity. Perhaps you could step outside of your own box, and take a look around. You're not the only person born different. Since when does difference deserve pity? Don't feel sorry for my child. Don't feel sorry for me. Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

Again, you are reading your own prejudices into the question. She has not pitied you, she has not claimed to be the only one born different. In fact, she hasn't complained at all about being different or wanted pity, the only reason it came up is because you made it an issue: "What makes you think your body is so Perfect?" In fact, you are the one that set your child up to be pitied: "I'd just bring my little boy along so you could talk to him, and he could hug you with that great big love that swells up in him so much that he just has to let it out."

You are the only one I see here wanting to feel sorry for themselves, otherwise you wouldn't try to keep turning the question around on how she's persecuting you and your boy.

Adiya said:
When you learn to love and accept who you are, then maybe it will be easier for you to stop blaming God for not loving you enough to make you like those that you think are better than yourself.

That is quite an assumption. What makes you assume that she is doing anything of the sort? Why do you feel the need to make judgements rather than to try and simply answer her question?

Adiya said:
In reality, flesh is temporary. What you do with your inner being, (soul) is far more important. There are many beautiful people (according to societal standards) who are horrid and ugly inside. There are also some people born differently who are horrid and ugly inside.

I don't see where that is being debated. It doesn't matter that there are beautiful people that are ugly inside, any more than it matters that there are ugly people that are ugly inside. The question is, why are some born ugly and some born pretty. Or more to the point, why are some born with problems with which they will have pain for their entire lives?

Adiya said:
To develop beauty within, one must begin with LOVE. Life is a gift. Every moment you can breathe is a gift. Every moment you can think and react, is a gift. Some cannot breathe without machines. Some cannot think or react. Some are treated as if they cannot think, simply because they are different.

What does this have to do with the OP?

Adiya said:
If you want to make a difference in the way the world perceives you, then start on the inside. If you want to know why God allowed you to be different than others, start by getting to know Him. If you want to be loved, start by loving yourself.

I know greeneyedgirl, she is my friend. I'm quite upset at your condenscension, at your judgemental attitude, and at your false assumptions. She is one of the most loving people I've ever met. She has recently struggled in finding God. Unfortunately she has a lot of pain in her life right now. She's been seeking God, trying to find Him again. As you've pointed out that some people do, she's been judged by many because of her problems as being inadequate and unworthy, yet her relationship with God survived that.

Currently, she is honestly looking for answers. Yet, your post that appears to be full of judgement and hate has damaged her search. You have reminded her too much of other judgemental Christians she has known and been hurt by.

I don't have a good answer for her on this question. I can't explaining why the Lord allows some to hurt the way he does beyond saying that it is all part of His plan. I know there are those that have better answers and hoped she might find them here. I do not expect her to come back to seek help in her search, and for that I am very sad.

Mandevar · Feb 1, 2006

Dragons87 said:
God isn't too concerned about physical suffering. He cares for something deeper, something atheists ignore the existence of - suffering of the soul.

You know he values the spiritual aspect of us above the physical, but what about when he supposedly created us and our environment? Was he concerned then?

what is "too concerned"? so he doesnt really care that he created something that kills innocent beings, or not much anways, he was just thinking, "yeah whatever, only their spirits really matter"? that is a problem to me. I would want him to care that we suffer, both physically and spiritually, but he doesnt. Thats the problem to me.

Jesus said: "And have no fear of those who put to death the body, but are not able to put to death the soul. But have fear of him who has power to give soul and body to destruction in hell." Matthew 10:28

There is much logic to this. Many people may have perfect health, perfect wealth, perfect stability, but spiritually they can still be very lost. That's why we want more, and more, and more, even in relative stability, to try to satisfy our inner emptiness. If you have inner peace and an infinite source of strength, how can external circumstances, no matter what they are, harm you?

And only God can provide that inner stability.

Eh. I dont want more, personally. I don't have this desire for "inner stability." Maybe only theists have it? I may have inner emptiness, to you, but I think external peace is more important. I want every being to be able to experience the joys of life. Your god doesnt allow that. Thats why I can't believe. Searching for this inner peace is selfish and counterproductive in my opinion. I know you don't believe this, but this is how I feel.

Yusuf Evans · Feb 2, 2006

The questions about the Lord and the percieved persecution and deformity upon people is nothing new. The Lord uses these people to further his kingdom. Have you ever seen someone with Down Syndrome depressed about their condition? I haven't. They seem to be extremely happy and ready to please everyone. It's the people with a healthy body and mind who are the sickness of society. Because they have no physical or mental defects, they feel superior and think it's necessary to condemn a God who would make these people "different and suffer".

Dragons87 · Feb 2, 2006

Mandevar said:
You know he values the spiritual aspect of us above the physical, but what about when he supposedly created us and our environment? Was he concerned then?

what is "too concerned"? so he doesnt really care that he created something that kills innocent beings, or not much anways, he was just thinking, "yeah whatever, only their spirits really matter"? that is a problem to me. I would want him to care that we suffer, both physically and spiritually, but he doesnt. Thats the problem to me.

Sorry. My wording problem. What I meant was: God is more concerned about the soul than the body - which doesn't mean that God doesn't care about the body - just that He cares about the soul more. After all, we're all gonna lose our bodies, all of us, after some time, but we'll never lose our souls.

Mandevar said:
Eh. I dont want more, personally. I don't have this desire for "inner stability." Maybe only theists have it? I may have inner emptiness, to you, but I think external peace is more important. I want every being to be able to experience the joys of life. Your god doesnt allow that. Thats why I can't believe. Searching for this inner peace is selfish and counterproductive in my opinion. I know you don't believe this, but this is how I feel.

I understand how you feel. But have you ever felt this way? You can be with a bunch of friends, but you still feel lonely? On the other hand, have you ever been alone, but not lonely? Cuz I have. And to me, what makes me happier and more at peace is being alone but not lonely. No matter how good my external circumstances are, if my internal doesn't settle, the external won't either. Once you have found that inner peace with God, I would then spread the joy all around.

In contrary to your belief, I would see trying to fit external circumstances for my own happiness as being selfish, because you want everything outside to work in your favour.

reverend B · Feb 2, 2006

" 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.' " Isaiah 55:8-9
so i don't know either. this is the great troubling question in all theology, regardless of religion. somehow, faith must transcend pain, grief and suffering. this thread can go for some time and a great answer will not be forthcoming. this is one of the things that are hidden behind the curtain, unanswerable until the proper time for this revelation.
unsatisfying? i have no doubt. it is for me as well. my faith is not because of this, it is in spite of it. my certainty that there is a God and that Jesus is my way to that God is not helped by the elimination of a quarter of a million people because of an underwater shift of two plates of undescribable mass. not helped at all.
but it remains nonetheless. i have accepted that there is much i will never understand about God. the fact that i am not privy to God revealed does not mean that God does not exist. those who would like to give you a short and succinct answer are sure to give you much target practice, as there will be simple retorts to refute simple answers.
the truth is, i wonder the same thing. the difference is, i don't think i have the answer. you think you do, and have judged God as wanting.
that is where we are different.
i look forward to knowing. you look forward to nothing. those are our choices.
and that is the free will.

Dragons87 · Feb 2, 2006

A great passage from the Gospel of John addressing the issue of physical disabilities:

"And when he went on his way, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples put a question to him, saying, Master, was it because of this man's sin, or the sin of his father and mother, that he has been blind from birth? Jesus said in answer, It was not because of his sin, or because of his father's or mother's; it was so that the works of God might be seen openly in him." John 9:1-3

Mandevar · Feb 2, 2006

Dragons87 said:
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Sorry. My wording problem. What I meant was: God is more concerned about the soul than the body - which doesn't mean that God doesn't care about the body - just that He cares about the soul more. After all, we're all gonna lose our bodies, all of us, after some time, but we'll never lose our souls.

Yeah... I knew what you meant, but this still doesnt answer my question. How or what could he have possibly imagined when creating us and our environment? Why would he allow us to be hurt by something we have absolutely no control over. I think the only honest answer is "i don't know," which is perfectly fine, but I'm just giving one of my reasons for not believing in God. I don't want a God who would knowingly create our world with the knowledge that it would hurt us.

I understand how you feel. But have you ever felt this way? You can be with a bunch of friends, but you still feel lonely? On the other hand, have you ever been alone, but not lonely? Cuz I have. And to me, what makes me happier and more at peace is being alone but not lonely. No matter how good my external circumstances are, if my internal doesn't settle, the external won't either. Once you have found that inner peace with God, I would then spread the joy all around.

Nope. Maybe its a theist thing? I'd rather be surrounded by family and friends most of the time than be alone. But yes there are times where I wish to be alone, which makes me lonely i guess. I want to me alone... think about stuff... reflect... and because i believe in no god maybe thats why i dont feel this void that you speak of...?

In contrary to your belief, I would see trying to fit external circumstances for my own happiness as being selfish, because you want everything outside to work in your favour.

Uhh... I still think you wanting to find this "internal peace" is selfish. You care only about yourself and your god, and making this connection.

How can my wanting to see everyone else experieicng and enjoy life be selfish? It makes me happy to see other people happy. I want everyone to be happy. Tsunamis stop that. God doesnt stop tsunamis. God created them, knew they could harm us. I can't believe in that kind of God. You can, it obviously makes you happy, this physical suffering is irrelavent to you, in the long run, I understand how you feel about this, it is just ultimately of little importance.

Believing in God makes many people happy. That is good.

Yusuf Evans · Feb 2, 2006

SimplyMe said:
I don't doubt that you're not sorry for who he is but can you honestly say that you don't ever wish that he was whole? Wouldn't it make your life and his easier?

I don't think she worries about that. I grew up having to raise a brother with ADD and was a little retarded. I loved him then, and continue to love him now. He's gotten in trouble, but now he's raising a family. He has Type 1 diabetes now, but doesn't let his deformities keep him back. Why do people insist that it is a burden from God for those that are different from us?

SimplyMe said:
You are the only one I see here wanting to feel sorry for themselves, otherwise you wouldn't try to keep turning the question around on how she's persecuting you and your boy.

I don't see it that way. I see it as her being proud of her little boy, and more than willing to accept the blessing that the Lord has provided her.

SimplyMe said:
The question is, why are some born ugly and some born pretty. Or more to the point, why are some born with problems with which they will have pain for their entire lives?

It's God's choice, though it tends to be those that are born "normal' or 'pretty' are the one's who are actually the ugliest of them all. I don't see disabled individuals, particularly those with mental defects always complaining about their shortcomings. Only those with nothing to complain about do so. It's pretty sad actually.

Faith In God · Feb 2, 2006

butxifxnot said:
"Why is there suffering?"

This is not an easily answered question. The extremely short answer is that God is letting Satan perform his experiment with sin. Love is not love if it is forced. God believes in freedom of speech, you might say. Repent! Will man love more than God?

I will elaborate, as this short answer doesn't seem to have solicited the attention it truly deserves.

Let us begin with the basics.

God is love. God wants us to love Him.

Can love be given involuntarily?
No.
We have a word for forced love: rape.

So, in order to create beings capable of loving, they must have free will (ie a choice to love or to hate and reject love). Sadly, Satan allowed his pride to make himself aspire to be God. God is not a tyrant. He did not just incinerate Satan there because 1) that would not answer the Devil's accusations of God, 2) it is not in God's nature to primarily destroy (His destruction of the wicked is called a "strange act". God is a creative God) and 3) the love resulting from the survivors would be out of fear, not of genuine love.

Satan was allowed to spread his case, and got his following: a third of the angels. They left heaven.

Now, God creates the world. He creates mankind. The devil is angry. He has no one to share his ideas with. So God allows one place, the Earth, and one means, the test of the Fruit, to make his case to humanity.

He succeeded, and sin entered the world. With sin came suffering. As the saying goes, "Sin is not hurtful because it is forbidden; sin is forbidden because it is hurtful". As mankind drifted away from God's intent for man, more hurt entered in.

At the end time, when all creation testifies to God's unabounding love in sending His SON to take our place of punishment and the earth is desolate with all kinds of death, do you think we will want to experiment with sin again?

Our God is an awesome God.

"" · Feb 2, 2006

christianmarine said:
I don't think she worries about that. I grew up having to raise a brother with ADD and was a little retarded. I loved him then, and continue to love him now. He's gotten in trouble, but now he's raising a family. He has Type 1 diabetes now, but doesn't let his deformities keep him back. Why do people insist that it is a burden from God for those that are different from us?

I don't see it that way. I see it as her being proud of her little boy, and more than willing to accept the blessing that the Lord has provided her.

It's God's choice, though it tends to be those that are born "normal' or 'pretty' are the one's who are actually the ugliest of them all. I don't see disabled individuals, particularly those with mental defects always complaining about their shortcomings. Only those with nothing to complain about do so. It's pretty sad actually.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you very much.

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