Why would God choose choose circumcision for His Covenant?

Joey16Vargas · Feb 24, 2021

Well, the OT was a bit harsh when it comes to rules and laws, but still I struggle to understand why God would ask such a thing to seal His Covenant.

Yeah I know how it happened, it was a symbol that made them God's people. I've read that for ancient deals, ancient rites, and in those days seals/alliances were sealed with blood and flesh, Ok I get it, why did God choose to harm a baby's penis in order to seal His pact?

It could have been a tattoo, an earring, a knife scar in the chest/back, etc

I've studied many wars and empires, so I'm used to read narratives about massacres, beheadings, mass rape, torture, burning, razing... And I have no problem reading things alike in the Bible (book of Joshua especially), but everytime circumcision is mentioned, I get a headache (ok, not a literal headache, but you get the idea). Seriously, if I had to choose I would gladly give up the skin of the 5 fingers of the right hand rather than losing my foreskin.

And besides, God only ask men to be marked, He never demanded that women were to have a sign too.

What do you think is the reason God choose to mark men in his most personal area?

Thank you

Dave L · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Well, the OT was a bit harsh when it comes to rules and laws, but still I struggle to understand why God would ask such a thing to seal His Covenant.

Yeah I know how it happened, it was a symbol that made them God's people. I've read that for ancient deals, ancient rites, and in those days seals/alliances were sealed with blood and flesh, Ok I get it, why did God choose to harm a baby's penis in order to seal His pact?

It could have been a tattoo, an earring, a knife scar in the chest/back, etc

I've studied many wars and empires, so I'm used to read narratives about massacres, beheadings, mass rape, torture, burning, razing... And I have no problem reading things alike in the Bible (book of Joshua especially), but everytime circumcision is mentioned, I get a headache (ok, not a literal headache, but you get the idea). Seriously, if I had to choose I would gladly give up the skin of the 5 fingers of the right hand rather than losing my foreskin.

And besides, God only ask men to be marked, He never demanded that women were to have a sign too.

What do you think is the reason God choose to mark men in his most personal area?

Thank you

It is a physical symbol of the new birth?

Albion · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Well, the OT was a bit harsh when it comes to rules and laws, but still I struggle to understand why God would ask such a thing to seal His Covenant.

Yeah I know how it happened, it was a symbol that made them God's people. I've read that for ancient deals, ancient rites, and in those days seals/alliances were sealed with blood and flesh, Ok I get it, why did God choose to harm a baby's penis in order to seal His pact?

First, I suppose you'd have to explain why you consider it to be harmful.

It could have been a tattoo, an earring, a knife scar in the chest/back, etc

In which case, the question put to us would be asking why a tattoo or why an earring. So perhaps circumcision isn't particularly odd, given that you'd accept SOMETHING of this same general kind of procedure.

What do you think is the reason God choose to mark men in his most personal area?

Probably because it is personal, as you say. But I'm still pondering the idea that this is supposedly God harming or deforming or degrading the child.

Halbhh · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Well, the OT was a bit harsh when it comes to rules and laws, but still I struggle to understand why God would ask such a thing to seal His Covenant.

Yeah I know how it happened, it was a symbol that made them God's people. I've read that for ancient deals, ancient rites, and in those days seals/alliances were sealed with blood and flesh, Ok I get it, why did God choose to harm a baby's penis in order to seal His pact?

It could have been a tattoo, an earring, a knife scar in the chest/back, etc

I've studied many wars and empires, so I'm used to read narratives about massacres, beheadings, mass rape, torture, burning, razing... And I have no problem reading things alike in the Bible (book of Joshua especially), but everytime circumcision is mentioned, I get a headache (ok, not a literal headache, but you get the idea). Seriously, if I had to choose I would gladly give up the skin of the 5 fingers of the right hand rather than losing my foreskin.

And besides, God only ask men to be marked, He never demanded that women were to have a sign too.

What do you think is the reason God choose to mark men in his most personal area?

Thank you

Consider: obeying such was itself an act of faith -- since it would seem to most people as if it could be dangerous or a loss, and it would therefore take some faith to believe it is to be done.

One thing you see in reading through the Old Testament, is that over and over the way to align with God is through faith (and thus acts of faith).

Notice that as Christians, while we are not required to be circumcised physically, we are required to have circumcision of the heart.

Which means we give up some of the urges of the flesh (not all of them!) -- things like greed, envy, lusts after people not our spouse, and such things.

What is circumcision of the heart? | GotQuestions.org

Joey16Vargas · Feb 24, 2021

Dave L said:
It is a physical symbol of the new birth?

Why wouldn't God ask to also make a sign on women?

Joey16Vargas · Feb 24, 2021

Albion said:
First, I suppose you'd have to explain why you consider it to be harmful.

In which case, the question put to us would be asking why a tattoo or why an earring. So perhaps circumcision isn't particularly odd, given that you'd accept SOMETHING of this same general kind of procedure.

Probably because it is personal, as you say. But I'm still pondering the idea that this is supposedly God harming or deforming or degrading the child.

Well, removing sensitive tissue off a baby's genitals, it doesn't sound quite gentle

Albion · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Well, removing sensitive tissue off a baby's genitals, it doesn't sound quite gentle

True, but neither is a tattoo or pierced ears gentle; and the baby doesn't remember the circumcision.

Hawkins · Feb 24, 2021

For it hides dirt and may cause disease. It's difficult to get medication in an ancient world. The kind of disease may affect reproduction which is the most important to the Jews. The faster the population grows the less time the Jews shall spend in Egypt as slaves.

It is also an enforcement for circumcision to be done in early age. It is specified that it should be done on the 8th day after birth when the children don't feel and don't dodge the pain and bloodshed which are closely related to cleansing and purification.

If women are given an early marking, it is easy to lead to thinking that later Jews shall not marry outsiders but only those given the marking. The Jews however can actually marry outsiders and convert them to follow Judaism. Thus the population of the Jews at any point of time can be fast enough without such a limitation. And actually more women are saved by converting to Judaism. It is almost natural in an ancient world for the married woman to convert and follow the religion of their husbands.

In terms of the covenant, circumcision means "you are a Jew now". So even the male converts are required to be circumcised to signify that "you are now under the Mosaic covenant (or a covenant of the Jews from Abraham till Moses)".

ozso · Feb 24, 2021

A lot of God's OT laws were matters of hygiene. Zillions of Americans have been circumcised for the sake of hygiene.

Dave L · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Why wouldn't God ask to also make a sign on women?

Women were considered covenant members through their circumcised fathers or husbands

Joey16Vargas · Feb 24, 2021

Hawkins said:
For it hides dirt and may cause disease. It's difficult to get medication in an ancient world. The kind of disease may affect reproduction which is the most important to the Jews. The faster the population grows the less time the Jews shall spend in Egypt as slaves.

It is also an enforcement for circumcision to be done in early age. It is specified that it should be done on the 8th day after birth when the children don't feel and don't dodge the pain and bloodshed which are closely related to cleansing and purification.

If women are given an early marking, it is easy to lead to thinking that later Jews shall not marry outsiders but only those given the marking. The Jews however can actually marry outsiders and convert them to follow Judaism. Thus the population of the Jews at any point of time can be fast enough without such a limitation. And actually more women are saved by converting to Judaism. It is almost natural in an ancient world for the married woman to convert and follow the religion of their husbands.

In terms of the covenant, circumcision means "you are a Jew now". So even the male converts are required to be circumcised to signify that "you are now under the Mosaic covenant (or a covenant of the Jews from Abraham till Moses)".

Well, having an open wound in such a sensitive area in times were hygiene wasn't really implemeneted, doesn't sound quite logic.
But think about it, if men had difficulties with cleaning back then, so did women, and consider that back then women had none of today's tampons, pad, panty liners, etc

Joey16Vargas · Feb 24, 2021

MMXX said:
A lot of God's OT laws were matters of hygiene. Zillions of Americans have been circumcised for the sake of hygiene.

Well, today's circumcision is mostly a esthetic surgery, there are more uncut men than the cut ones. Plus cleaning under your foreskin takes about 15-20 seconds a day

Hawkins · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Well, having an open wound in such a sensitive area in times were hygiene wasn't really implemeneted, doesn't sound quite logic.
But think about it, if men had difficulties with cleaning back then, so did women, and consider that back then women had none of today's tampons, pad, panty liners, etc

You are speaking against fact that. No many Jews are infected for the record while all of them (males) are circumcised!

It is logical because it sticks with the fact!

Albion · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
Yes I get your point, but I prefer a hole in my ear rather than having a part of my **** removed.

Understood. However, those procedures were your choice of examples and you did mention pain as something it seems God wouldn't inflict upon us for no apparent reason. I think that the answer to your question basically is that we don't know exactly why God made this choice.

Perhaps it was that it is so personal, as you suggested, or that it is a powerful act of submission to our God, as another poster suggested, or that it is actually good for us, which several other members said.

We cannot dismiss the latter idea out of hand, since God also said not to eat of the meat of cloven footed animals and we might ask why he'd be so mean as to forbid bacon! But we know now that certain animals posed a health risk to people of an earlier time, although they might not have realized it.

Rene Loup · Feb 24, 2021

I know this will sound like a complete cop-out, but this is the best explanation I currently have on this question:

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the juniper,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the Lord’s renown,
for an everlasting sign,
that will endure forever.”

~Isaiah 55:8-13 (NIV)

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55 - New King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55 - New International Version
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55 - International Children’s Bible

There are things other cultures do we think are strange or even downright barbaric. That same culture could look at us and think the same. How could we expect a supreme being, Who does not think like us, to be any different?

God is the Creator. He makes ALL the rules.

Halbhh · Feb 24, 2021

Joey16Vargas said:
today's circumcision

For us as believers, Christians, we have today's circumcision: the "circumcision of the heart."

It's similar in a way though -- we are to be changed, by our faith.

Hawkins · Feb 24, 2021

Halbhh said:
For us as believers, Christians, we have today's circumcision: the "circumcision of the heart."

It's similar in a way though -- we are to be changed, by our faith.

In a nutshell, circumcision is for God to mark His people the Jews, while in effect baptism does the same for marking the gentiles (Jews as well) as God's sheep under the New Covenant.

Dave L · Feb 24, 2021

Hawkins said:
In a nutshell, circumcision is for God to mark His people the Jews, while in effect baptism does the same for marking the gentiles (Jews as well) as God's sheep under the New Covenant.

Circumcision made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Many non-relatives were circumcised Jews.

Halbhh · Feb 24, 2021

Hawkins said:
In a nutshell, circumcision is for God to mark His people the Jews, while in effect baptism does the same for marking the gentiles (Jews as well) as God's sheep under the New Covenant.

I thought the GotQuestions answer did a good job, bringing out even the deep and wonderful message from Deuteronomy chapter 30. And much more, both old and new testament, scriptures that tell us the full quality of circumcision of the heart.

Albion · Feb 24, 2021

Hawkins said:
In a nutshell, circumcision is for God to mark His people the Jews, while in effect baptism does the same for marking the gentiles (Jews as well) as God's sheep under the New Covenant.

Not to disagree with that, but doesn't this simply sidestep the bigger question which is "Why did God chose this particular way of accomplishing that objective?"

Why would God choose choose circumcision for His Covenant?

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