Why would a perfect and omniscient being need logic

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

I am involved in a thread over at thethinkingatheist.com and It occurred to me during that discussion that a perfect and omniscient being would not need logic. Logic is a method of organizing, integrating and validating our ideas and concepts. It is a way of making sure our thoughts conform to reality. An omniscient being who created everything would not need to conform its thoughts to reality, reality would literally conform to its thoughts.

Also would the knowledge of an omniscient and perfect being be conceptual in nature? Concepts are condensations of data sort of like a compressed computer file. They allow us condense an unlimited number of units into a single unit, thereby extending the range and scope of our minds. If you are unfamiliar with the term "unit" it simply means a member of a group of similar objects. There was an interesting study back in the 30's to discover how many units that Crows could deal with at once. It turns out for crows it goes something like: one, two, three, many. Humans do a little better. We can deal with 6 or 7 units at a time. ( you can read about the Crow epistemology in An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology) So concepts are a way that our brains achieve unit economy. A perfect being would not have this limitation. Why would it need to use concepts?

Just something for you all to chew on a bit.

If you're interested in following the discussion over at the thinking atheist it is here:

Logic Proof for God

Edit: Just a word of warning. People can get a little rough over there. If you're offended by bad language you might want to abstain.

variant · Apr 6, 2015

I am involved in a thread over at thethinkingatheist.com and It occurred to me during that discussion that a perfect and omniscient being would not need logic. Logic is a method of organizing, integrating and validating our ideas and concepts. It is a way of making sure our thoughts conform to reality. An omniscient being who created everything would not need to conform its thoughts to reality, reality would literally conform to its thoughts.

If omniscient beings thoughts, where the universe conformed to the thoughts of that being, were disordered, so too would be the universe, so it would need logic in order to create a logical universe...

If a being can't or didn't create an ordered universe how would we call it perfect?

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

variant said:
If omniscient beings thoughts, where the universe conformed to thoughts that being, were disordered so would be the universe, so it would need logic in order to create a logical universe...

If a being can't or didn't create an ordered universe how would we call it perfect?

So it would have to have its plans ordered in order to create order.

variant · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
So it would have to have its plans ordered in order to create order.

There would have to be order in the thoughts to produce order in reality, I don't know if the thinking itself has to be ordered (or even thinking).

Omniscient does assume thinking I think, so to have thinking at all you would need order I think.

But your referenced argument:

1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise 2 is mis worded, logic is a description of the order.

Premise 1 is incorrect, logic does not exist where minds (or systems that operate like minds) do not, so this begs the question.

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

variant said:
There would have to be order in the thoughts to produce order in reality, I don't know if the thinking itself has to be ordered (or even thinking).

Omniscient does assume thinking I think, so to have thinking at all you would need order I think.

Wouldn't its thoughts be perfectly ordered already without having to use a method to organize them?

variant · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
Wouldn't its thoughts be perfectly ordered already without having to use a method to organize them?

You think God has no mechanism?

I don't know, it depends on what God is made of.

I think the mere suggestion that the thoughts are ordered suggests logic is necessarily expressed in the perfection.

Would it be logic like our logic? Maybe not...

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

variant said:
You think God has no mechanism?

I don't know, it depends on what God is made of.

I think the mere suggestion that the thoughts are ordered suggests logic is necessarily expressed in the perfection.

Would it be logic like our logic? Maybe not...

Well, I don't think God has any mechanism because I don't think it exists but many people say that God created logic. It doesn't make sense if it were truly omniscient and perfect. It would have no need to check the truth of its conclusions because whatever it wanted the universe to be it would be and truth would be whatever it wanted it to be. If it wanted ice cream to stay frozen on a hot summer day it would stay frozen and if it wanted 2+2 to equal 7 it would.

Ana the Ist · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
I am involved in a thread over at thethinkingatheist.com and It occurred to me during that discussion that a perfect and omniscient being would not need logic. Logic is a method of organizing, integrating and validating our ideas and concepts. It is a way of making sure our thoughts conform to reality. An omniscient being who created everything would not need to conform its thoughts to reality, reality would literally conform to its thoughts.

Also would the knowledge of an omniscient and perfect being be conceptual in nature? Concepts are condensations of data sort of like a compressed computer file. They allow us condense an unlimited number of units into a single unit, thereby extending the range and scope of our minds. If you are unfamiliar with the term "unit" it simply means a member of a group of similar objects. There was an interesting study back in the 30's to discover how many units that Crows could deal with at once. It turns out for crows it goes something like: one, two, three, many. Humans do a little better. We can deal with 6 or 7 units at a time. ( you can read about the Crow epistemology in An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology) So concepts are a way that our brains achieve unit economy. A perfect being would not have this limitation. Why would it need to use concepts?

Just something for you all to chew on a bit.

If you're interested in following the discussion over at the thinking atheist it is here:

Logic Proof for God

Edit: Just a word of warning. People can get a little rough over there. If you're offended by bad language you might want to abstain.

I'm not even sure why such a being would "need". If it's perfect, I would imagine it requires nothing more than it has (especially worship).

It's interesting that you thought of this, because I was thinking about the emotional state of an eternal, omniscient, all powerful being just today. It seems that such a creature would be miserable....utterly miserable. Imagine it...

You'd never have any new "experiences". Nothing unexpected would ever happen to you. You would never hope for anything...since you already know all outcomes, and everything unfolds according to how you expect it to, there's no reason to "hope" for anything. Indeed, I don't see how you could be "pleased" or "disappointed" with anything or anyone. Again, all outcomes occur as expected. This, of course, flies in the face of the notion that god wants you to act a certain way or do certain things. Why? He already knows if you will or won't...think of it. When you want someone to act a certain way or make a certain choice...and they don't, you're disappointed...why? Because you held out hope for the possibility that they would make the choice you wanted....even if deep down you knew they wouldn't. If that possibility is gone...could you still be disappointed in the choice they made? I don't think you could...In your mind it couldn't have happened any other way.

You're completely unchangeable. Would you even consider "doing" things? You already know all you will ever do and the outcome... would you still consider it as something you've done if you couldn't have done otherwise? Indeed, what would be the point of doing anything? For example, what would be the point in creating a universe? You already know what will come of it...so it won't be for entertainment. You already know who will worship you and who won't...and you know that they couldn't have chosen any other way...so would that worship have any value to you? You know who worships you sincerely and who's just saying it...but it's not as if those who sincerely mean it could not have sincerely meant it. It seems to me it such worship wouldn't have any value to the god who knows all.

It starts to all appear pointless doesn't it? Indeed, what is the point of anything that must happen and couldn't have happened any other way? It seems to be a very empty, hollow existence devoid of joy or hope or fulfillment. It's boring, and it lasts forever.

What a horrible existence.

variant · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
Well, I don't think God has any mechanism because I don't think it exists

I don't think It exists either, the issue I am having is the interplay between the ideas.

but many people say that God created logic.

And if God created the universe and minds it did.

It doesn't make sense if it were truly omniscient and perfect. It would have no need to check the truth of its conclusions because whatever it wanted the universe to be it would be and truth would be whatever it wanted it to be. If it wanted ice cream to stay frozen on a hot summer day it would stay frozen and if it wanted 2+2 to equal 7 it would.

If God thinks, and the thoughts are ordered, God necessarily has logic (a way for the thoughts to become or be ordered), whether this has to be done through a perfect process or just happens naturally because God is God.

So, I don't see the problem, either in God having logic, or creating it.

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
I'm not even sure why such a being would "need". If it's perfect, I would imagine it requires nothing more than it has (especially worship).

It's interesting that you thought of this, because I was thinking about the emotional state of an eternal, omniscient, all powerful being just today. It seems that such a creature would be miserable....utterly miserable. Imagine it...

You'd never have any new "experiences". Nothing unexpected would ever happen to you. You would never hope for anything...since you already know all outcomes, and everything unfolds according to how you expect it to, there's no reason to "hope" for anything. Indeed, I don't see how you could be "pleased" or "disappointed" with anything or anyone. Again, all outcomes occur as expected. This, of course, flies in the face of the notion that god wants you to act a certain way or do certain things. Why? He already knows if you will or won't...think of it. When you want someone to act a certain way or make a certain choice...and they don't, you're disappointed...why? Because you held out hope for the possibility that they would make the choice you wanted....even if deep down you knew they wouldn't. If that possibility is gone...could you still be disappointed in the choice they made? I don't think you could...In your mind it couldn't have happened any other way.

You're completely unchangeable. Would you even consider "doing" things? You already know all you will ever do and the outcome... would you still consider it as something you've done if you couldn't have done otherwise? Indeed, what would be the point of doing anything? For example, what would be the point in creating a universe? You already know what will come of it...so it won't be for entertainment. You already know who will worship you and who won't...and you know that they couldn't have chosen any other way...so would that worship have any value to you? You know who worships you sincerely and who's just saying it...but it's not as if those who sincerely mean it could not have sincerely meant it. It seems to me it such worship wouldn't have any value to the god who knows all.

It starts to all appear pointless doesn't it? Indeed, what is the point of anything that must happen and couldn't have happened any other way? It seems to be a very empty, hollow existence devoid of joy or hope or fulfillment. It's boring, and it lasts forever.

What a horrible existence.

I've thought the same thing. Nothing new to learn. Nothing to strive for or achieve. No surprises. I don't think an indestructible being would even have values. It would simply be indifferent. All the reasons to live would simply be non existent. I think I'd commit suicide.

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

variant said:
I don't think It exists either, the issue I am having is the interplay between the ideas.

And if God created the universe and minds it did.

If God thinks, and the thoughts are ordered, God necessarily has logic (a way for the thoughts to become or be ordered), whether this has to be done through a perfect process or just happens naturally because God is God.

So, I don't see the problem, either in God having logic, or creating it.

What about the other question? Would a god's knowledge be in the form of concepts?

variant · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
What about the other question? Would a god's knowledge be in the form of concepts?

This is purely hypothetical but no, I would think that in order to achieve omniscience you would have to have a method of thinking that isn't based upon limitations.

This would necessarily mean though that all the ideas we are expressing with respect to the entity would be wrong.

True Scotsman · Apr 6, 2015

variant said:
This is purely hypothetical but no, I would think that in order to achieve omniscience you would have to have a method of thinking that isn't based upon limitations.

I've often wondered what form people who claim to receive direct communication with God receive that information.

variant · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
I've often wondered what form people who claim to receive direct communication with God receive that information.

You don't think God can speak the language? Hard to call it omnipotent if it can't accomplish simple tasks.

Ana the Ist · Apr 6, 2015

True Scotsman said:
I've thought the same thing. Nothing new to learn. Nothing to strive for or achieve. No surprises. I don't think an indestructible being would even have values. It would simply be indifferent. All the reasons to live would simply be non existent. I think I'd commit suicide.

At least you would know what awaited you if you killed yourself... or if there's nothing at all.

Radagast · Apr 7, 2015

True Scotsman said:
I am involved in a thread over at ********* and It occurred to me during that discussion that a perfect and omniscient being would not need logic.

A perfect and omniscient being would think logically. Logic is a way of describing what perfectly rational thinking looks like.

True Scotsman said:
many people say that God created logic [...] if it wanted 2+2 to equal 7 it would.

The laws of logic are eternal, not created; they are part of the nature of God. Therefore God cannot "make 2+2 to equal 7," because 2+2 has eternally been 4.

True Scotsman said:
If you're interested in following the discussion over at the thinking atheist it is here

Not interested in the least. It sounds like the conversation didn't get terribly deep.

True Scotsman · Apr 7, 2015

Radagast said:
A perfect and omniscient being would think logically. Logic is a way of describing what perfectly rational thinking looks like.

The laws of logic are eternal, not created; they are part of the nature of God. Therefore God cannot "make 2+2 to equal 7," because 2+2 has eternally been 4.

Not interested in the least. It sounds like the conversation didn't get terribly deep.

You have a very different view of logic than I do, which is not surprising.

Why would a perfect and omniscient being need logic

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