Why would a Christian be rich?

Willie T said:

Let's see........ Should I make $25,000 a year, and give all I possibly can (maybe $2,000 a year, tops) to the poor...... ......or should I make $300,000 a year, and give $100,000 a year to the poor? The rest going to educate my own family so that they can continue to make good money to, likewise, share with poorer people for generations to come? The math is pretty easy to figure...... even with no education.

Click to expand...

How about you make $300,000 and give away $277,000

IronicallyHuman said:

Just to make sure everyone is clear, I am not asking if having nice things is bad and I am not saying that having nice things is bad. I'm asking why a Christian want nice things. If we truly believe that giving and living out our faith is the key to happiness... Then why not just do that? OOOHH because God doesn't say we shouldn't have nice stuff blah blah blah.. But WHY would we want nice clothes and what not? If we know that luxury isn't exactly what makes us happy or helps us serve God.. Then why even care about it? Why not just focus on working that job and serving other people? We say we don't find happiness in objects, yet we still buy them. Even if we don't idolize or strive for those items.. Why even bother with them?

Click to expand...

Just seeing that this is your REAL question, and if I remember rightly, you grew up wealthy?

If you hadn't, you might have another perspective. As a child, I was desperately poor most of the time. No grass around, everything was bare dirt, broken glass. I never saw my mother - she was always away, trying to support her family. One of two white children in an all black area - NOTHING against any race, but just so you know, that meant I was chased and beaten up daily. And that was by my "friends". Life was very bleak for some years, and I had the sense that the entire world was gray, without even any color. The only bright spot were a few wild plants I dug up from the woods and coaxed to grow in rusty coffee cans, and the beautiful pictures in books. Now, do you have any idea what a comfort just one pretty thing in my home would have been to me, or one soft, comfortable outfit, or even a pair of shoes that fit?

There are a lot of perspectives out there. Believe me, I don't live extravagantly. I shop at thrift stores, and consider most of those things overpriced. But I'm not going to ask why someone else would even want something nice.

As I said, it's a very personal thing, and not something one is likely to be able to decide for another.

Anyone notice that in the case of annanias and saphira they had the option to keep any part or all of the proceeds of their land. It was the boast of their generosity that seemed to be the problem.....

Nig said:

Anyone notice that in the case of annanias and saphira they had the option to keep any part or all of the proceeds of their land. It was the boast of their generosity that seemed to be the problem.....

Click to expand...

I think that's a good point, and I considered it myself. They were specifically told it was their land to do with as they would, and the money was theirs as well. It was in lying and wanting it believed that they gave all that was the sin.

Ohhhhh ...... now that I type that I like even better that you brought it up. Perhaps there can be a caution there. I know the widow who gave all she had to live on, even though it was only a small amount, was said to have given more than all the (wealthy) others. So clearly such is admirable. But ... wanting others to SEE you as "giving it all" may indicate a more serious sin of pride than I'd first thought.

Something else to think about.

(Please forgive my somewhat rambling response ... getting over a lingering flu and coming down with a cold, and going on too many hours with no sleep.)

2ndRateMind said:

This seems to be the central line of approach, in your response. So, forgive me if I ignore the extraneous matter.

Firstly, I have deliberately kept my definitions qualitative, rather than quantitative. As you have yourself previously pointed out, the cost of living varies with geography. So, clearly, no one number will do. Nevertheless, my definitions are not quite as vague as you pretend; we all know what is meant by dignity, and it does not include the necessity to beg on city streets, for example. And the condition I put in brackets, which you seem not to have noticed, that reasonable dignity should be limited to a quality of life that one could realistically wish for everyone, adds a touch of egalitarian rigour.

Click to expand...

Once again you're talking in very vague terms while complaining about me highlighting your vague terminology. What is "reasonable dignity"? Does it mean having a roof over your head? A flatscreen TV? A spare bedroom for those overnight guests?

Clearly no one number will do regarding wealth - my point regarding geography was that figures that initially appear horrific - "X million people live on less than $3 a day" - don't paint the picture they first appear to paint. If you live in Manhatten $3 barely gets you a coffee. If you live in Sri Lanka $3 goes significantly further.

Of course there is little dignity in begging on city streets. What dignity is there, or should there be, in living on the back of another while doing nothing to support yourself? How is it dignifying to someone who is capable of working, to just be given things without having to do anything for them? What dignity is there in a social welfare system that takes away hope from people, by giving them just enough to get by and pairing it with the threat of taking it all away if they try and better their own situation through their own efforts?

Despite your objections, I think we all know also what is meant by excessive wealth, and it is wealth in excess of one's justifiable needs. These needs may indeed involve the occasional luxury indulgence, but it clearly does not include an entire lifetime of such indulgence.

Click to expand...

Clearly there is no clear definition of "excessive wealth", especially since you yourself commented on how you did not believe you were "excessively wealthy" and as far as you were concerned that was the state of affairs regarding your life. A billionaire could say the exact same thing if they chose.

Even in this paragraph you're talking in very vague terms. An "occasional luxury indulgence" is fine but a "lifetime of such indulgence" is not? So what counts as a "luxury indulgence"? Anything not 100% essential for survival? Anything the majority might find unaffordable?

To be clear, my objection is not with an assertion that we should look after the poor among us. My objection is with universal questions about why a Christian would want something when that something is only vaguely defined and when the person asking the question appears, on the face of it, to be looking to exclude themselves from the potential implications of their question.

For example, is a computer a luxury? Of course it is, we could live without computers (as indeed we as a species did for however many thousands or millions of years before they were invented). So owning a computer in the long term is arguably a "lifetime of indulgence", while drinking an entire case of vintage Dom Perignon is arguably an "occasional luxury indulgence".

The fact that I am asking people to make judgements in respect of these matters seems to bother you, but the reality is, unless one practises arriving at moral judgements, one is never going to get any better at making them. And, in respect of wealth, in this unequal, unfair world, we surely need to.

Click to expand...

Moral judgements are all well and good but in coming to a moral judgment we either need to let people decide for themselves, or come up with some clear-cut definitions. "Thou shalt not commit adultery", for example, doesn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room. "Christians shouldn't be rich" falls down unless it can define what "rich" means in objective terms so it's clear who is "rich" and who is "not rich".

If you want to make a moral judgment that you have more than you need then you are free to give as great a proportion of your material wealth in whatever way you see fit. If, in your eyes, you are "rich" then you are free to give it away. If you choose to pick a single street beggar and give them so much money they can live in a palace for the rest of their days that's your call. If you choose to pick a wealthy man and give him money so he can wash his Ferrari in Dom Perignon and escape the indignity of using mere water that is also your call. If you choose to give small amounts to lots of individuals, making a small difference in each of many lives you get to do that too.

Mostly, when I get on my soapbox about this issue, people object for one of two reasons. Either they are rich, and want to stay rich, or they are not rich, and want to become so. I am simply suggesting that neither of these are acceptable ambitions from an ethical (and therefore Christian) point of view, given the state of the world we jointly and severally inhabit.

Click to expand...

The problem isn't money, the problem is when money becomes our God. There is nothing wrong with having money, as long as those who have it are willing to use it as God directs.

I'm quite happy to leave people to decide for themselves what to give, whether out of their abundance or sacrificially giving out of what little they have.

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver."

contango said:

To be clear, my objection is not with an assertion that we should look after the poor among us.

Click to expand...

Good, then we are agreed in principle, even if we differ in detail.

You seem to want me to specify in absolute terms when wealth is excessive, when life is undignified, how much each Christian should give to succour the poor. Well, I'm sorry, but I just won't do that. Each Christian must decide for themselves, and I do not intend to usurp their right to make that determination. I have provided some ideas around the topic, but the final decisions must be for each individual, according to their circumstances and moral strength.

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind said:

References, please.

If you can't see the immorality of being wealthy while people starve, well, I despair of your moral judgement, in return. What is more, you seem to think that people should enjoy (indeed, delight in) that wealth despite the unmet needs of the needy. This is like adding insult to injury. Not only are you going to let the poor starve, you are going to party while they do. I suggest to you that if is how wealthy people are, and why they cling to that wealth, it has already caused a stumbling block between them and their proper relationship with their neighbour, which, Jesus informs us, is to be a relationship of love.

Nor do I see it as a necessary truth that the wealthy are wealthy because God has given them that wealth. Often enough they have simply exploited a position of power to take it. Even if it were true, though, from those to whom much is given, much is expected; and if you are unable to meet that expectation, because you are unable to part with your wealth, even in a good cause, then I think your God is a very different creature to the loving, but challenging, father of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Here is the reference.

Ecclesiastes chapter 5 vs 18-20

"Then I realized that it is good and proper for a man to eat and drink, and to find satisfaction in his toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given him - for this is his lot. Moreover, when God gives any man wealth or possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work - this is a gift of God. He seldom reflects on the days of his life, because God keeps him occupied with gladness of heart."

Scripture clearly contradicts your assertion, plain as day.

One, who gives the wealth? God. Two, who enables the man to enjoy it? God. Three, it is received as a gift in accordance with the mans toilsome work.

Look, I understand this is a hard teaching but read Ecclesiastes chapter five and six, it covers how to handle wealth correctly and how to handle it badly. There is a wicked way and a good way, inventing your own morality outside of scripture is simply setting yourself up as God, the only true arbiter of absolute morality. Charity will flow from the man who God gladly enables to be wealthy as that man recognizes the source of his wealth, and will be glad in it.

Once again you need to apply context with the entirety of what God has spoken about wealth, not just cherry picking verses with no proper exegesis. Is it a sin to not be charitable? Absolutely! Does God give wealth as a gift, at his own discretion mind you not mans? Absolutely! Can wealth be a stumbling block to a Christian if not handled correctly? Absolutely!

Whether rich or poor we should all be charitable and learn to be content. This is a teaching within Ecclesiastes and echoed by the apostle Paul.

I honestly am embarrassed some young Christians have not read the entirety of scripture and then rush to make their own 'moral' judgements without first seeking Gods word and seeing what he has to say about it in its entirety.

Grandiose said:

Here is the reference.

Ecclesiastes chapter 5 vs 18-20

Click to expand...

Thankyou, I shall read the book tonight, or tomorrow, as I am inclined.

Grandiose said:

Whether rich or poor we should all be charitable and learn to be content.

Click to expand...

We do not disagree on this, even arriving at the conclusion from differing directions.

Grandiose said:

I honestly am embarrassed some young Christians have not read the entirety of scripture and then rush to make their own 'moral' judgements without first seeking Gods word and seeing what he has to say about it in its entirety.

Click to expand...

As you might expect, I could dispute with this, but it would be beside the topic of the thread.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I love you, you are my brother in the eyes of God. You matter to me. Do not take my posts as arguments, take them as an earnest plea to see you grow in the faith and knowledge of the Lord our God.

You will LOVE Ecclesiastes, I can tell it will strike a chord with you mind and soul! It answers the question 'what is the meaning of life?'. Your ability to chew over certain notions should be well fed, and found to be satiated with this book.

I eagerly look forward to your report after reading it.

Mod Hat

Thread has been cleaned. If you are missing a post, this is why.