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You still do not understand the 10 commandments and the rest of the Law added by Moses and why it was added, no point discussing this until you get this. I have probably written about this in other threads, you can search for this on this site or better still, simply read the Bible, all is there for you to find.a duty or act of remembrance specific to a day of the week repeated so to keep this day as holy is indeed a ritualistic.
you've misunderstood me. I've never said rituals are negative, in fact I explicitly said the opposite in my response to you. however God does not desire the ritual, he desires the heart. given contrasting scenarios of ritual with the heart it is the heart that God welcomes over the ritual, not the ritual over the heart. The old covenant views the physical as a means to reach the heart. the physical was a required presence and intrinsic to the faith. it was a mechanism of separating a people group called Holy and used to show other nations God's glory.
The new covenant however views the heart as a means to reach the physical. We see this demonstrated in various ways for example in the Mat 5 Jesus tells us of the commandments of do not murder and do not commit adultery, a reference to 2 of the 10. Then he steps off script and addresses hatred insteaof d merely resisting murder, or addresses lust instead or merely resisting having sex with another woman. Jesus addressed the heart and showed how these commandments do not address the heart. We see Christ's dialogue with the rich man. He is asking Christ in Mat 19:20 "All these I have kept .... what do I still lack?” He kept the commandments yet still was lacking. Showing again the commandments themselves are lacking and do not address the heart. This all feels good except when we challenge the Sabbath. Still blinding keeping it according to law but are we asking "what do I still lack" and unlike the rich man are we ready to commit? Jesus does challenge Sabbath practice in Mat 12:12 saying it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. So while you may keep the Sabbath according to the letter, my motivation instead is to do good. I don't bother to count the days either, I just strive to do good everyday. is this not lawful?
this question was regarding law written upon our hearts. You said it was the 10 that is written upon our hearts. These verses do not show me where it is the 10 that are separated and then written upon our hearts. The 10 are tablets of the covenant law, they are placed in the ark of the covenant and the sign of the covenant is the sabbath. What part of this tells you it is universal, intended to be extracted then superimposed over all people groups forever? Circumcision is extremely similar, also a sign of an everlasting covenant for generations to come (Gen 17), also very specific in the physical act, and also a requirement. But NT teaching calls it nothing (1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15). Which covenant was God's perfect law? Why are we so quick to dimiss one, but not the other?
how did you conclude that "all the law and the prophets" actually meant only the 10 commandments? I would rather not change the words. the context is all the law and the prophets, so let's keep it there. scripture does not separate law, does not give it labels and segment it then say this group is for keeping and this group we can sweep under the wrong. This phrase "all the law and the prophets" means just that, and Jesus also uses it in Mat 5:17 saying "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." again the context being "all the law and the prophets" and not reduced to the 10 commandments. so in v18, in the immediate context, when Christ says "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." why conflated this with the 10? This is not the 10, it is all the law and the prophets. stop conflating these references to things that cannot be supported. the 10 may be regardest as some of the greatest, yet Christ explicitly calls out the least as well, but still, all you see is the 10.
the 4th commandment is not a moral practice. sure we can argue that any commandment from God may be called moral but that's not critically engaging the subject and if we stick to that we must also include the stuff we don't want to talk about, for example, circumcision would also be called moral under the same measure. When we isolate the practices in the 10 the 4th does not address moral behaviour, it addresses ritual rest. There are also many laws outside the 10 that do address moral behaviour that does not fit with cutting up laws into these categories calling the 10 only moral code. For example, Lev 19:18 says "‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself." This is indeed included in moral code, and Jesus quotes this moral code and calls it the second greatest commandment. Leviticus is often entirely erased because the priestly duties are no longer active thus the levitical teachings have the same fate, yet here it is, explicit moral code and affirmed by Christ plus as a bonus outside of the 10. is this not a part of God's perfect law?
This paragraph that you have written feels like a copied and pasted devotional but it is not critically engaging the subject. The entire Torah may be separating into these two categories that you have made here. This is not unique to the 10 so in no way does it isolate the 10 either. Nowhere in scripture is the 10 commandments called moral law. the term moral law is not even biblical and is a post-biblical label applied to scripture and traditionally used synonymous with the 10, but this is a misnomer, the 10 are not all moral in nature. the 2 greatest commandments are also not a summary of the 10, all the law and prophets hang upon them (that is what Jesus said isn't it). "summary" is an interesting word to use. It is used in Mat 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets". (again the phrase "the law and the Prophets") but you seem to be using it to manipulate the text as uniquely identifying the 10 as a moral code. this is not how the word is used as the context is not uniquely the 10 it is all the law and the Prophets.
There is no reason to extract the 10 or conflate it with some other term that you're hiding in your back pocket to pull them out of their covenant. Whatever measure you apply to the 10 using these greatest commandments also needs to be applied to all the law and the prophets as is the explictly context. so if you conclude you pull out the 10 as requirement for Christian living then you you pull with it the law and the prophets over Christian living the same way, it is the package deal and this would be counter-gospel. There is no precedence to separate the 10 as you are doing and it robs the glory from Christ as he is what the 10 and all the law and Prophets are pointing to, instead you've found a way to point back to the 10. I don't want to hear how the NT points to the 10, I want to hear how the 10 points to Christ. Surely the latter is a more noble and greater cause, elevating the 10 beyond mere commandments or ritual and far better use of our attention.
funny I was about to say the same thing to you... yeah, that doesn't work does it. we approach scripture differently but if someone doesn't agree with your position it is not the same thing as they don't understand. This shows me you are avoiding the issues and not being serious with yourself. If you don't want to critically engage the points that's on you, but don't accuse others of what seems to be your own insecurities.You still do not understand the 10 commandments and the rest of the Law added by Moses and why it was added, no point discussing this until you get this. I have probably written about this in other threads, you can search for this on this site or better still, simply read the Bible, all is there for you to find.
When you understand this important distinction we could discuss.
I appreciate your attempt at exceptions to being killed.It misrepresents God's character as if He would kill someone if they were sick, or at a place where there wasn't a church so therefore couldn't keep the Sabbath and deserve death.
I have no issues with any commands of God. They are all fully in force.You do not understand what Jesus said about the commandments, read the parts where he explained the commandments and see what he says.
There was no attempt, you indicated not going to church service even once came with the death penalty yet provided no scripture that says this.I appreciate your attempt at exceptions to being killed.
Not keeping the Sabbath day holy is sin and deserves the death penalty according to God, same goes for committing murder or adultry or breaking any of God’s law. It’s not as much about the activity on the Sabbath but about being loyal to God. Keeping the Sabbath is a sign we are God’s people and loyal to Him Eze 20:20Now can we get around to the original question? What constitutes an offense of the Sabbath law(s) worthy of being put to death?
I have no issues with any commands of God. They are all fully in force.
Are you going to take a swing at the original question?
Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
You do understand that part of that command/law is to put to death those not in compliance?
What constitutes a death penalty non compliance worthy of such an event and secondly WHY is this not being enforced IF it's part of the command? (it's part of the command)
See col 2:14I have no issues with any commands of God. They are all fully in force.
Are you going to take a swing at the original question?
Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
You do understand that part of that command/law is to put to death those not in compliance?
What constitutes a death penalty non compliance worthy of such an event and secondly WHY is this not being enforced IF it's part of the command? (it's part of the command)
Then Explain to me the distinction between the commandments and the laws added by moses and why they were added.funny I was about to say the same thing to you... yeah, that doesn't work does it. we approach scripture differently but if someone doesn't agree with your position it is not the same thing as they don't understand. This shows me you are avoiding the issues and not being serious with yourself. If you don't want to critically engage the points that's on you, but don't accuse others of what seems to be your own insecurities.
Oh, so your angle is now you follow the laws, but if you screw up aka sin, there's no penalty?See col 2:14
Yes, I already noted that your positions claim to follow the law, but when it comes to following the whole law including being involved with the death penalty,There was no attempt
I've cited the scripture statements regarding this particular item several times. They are there for anyone to read.even once came with the death penalty yet provided no scripture that says this.
Ah, so now we're getting somewhere.Not keeping the Sabbath day holy is sin and deserves the death penalty according to God
OK, so you forward to the last judgment and sinner people are eternally killed for any sin, period? Is this where your positional claims want to go?Do you understand what a theocracy means and that we are no longer in it? Judgement is the last day
Can you please post the verse that says missing one church service deserves the death penalty? This was your original assertion but did not provide scripture that says this. I know breaking the Sabbath came with the death penalty as did many of the other commandments. Not sure why you are singling out only the Sabbath or the point you are trying to make.I've cited the scripture statements regarding this particular item several times. They are there for anyone to read.
Agreed, like the 4th commandment. Forgetting the one commandment God said Remember, ironic.People often claim to follow the law, but only the portions they happen to like, never the hard parts.
Did you read my post you are replying to it answers this question. What is your point about God's judgement - its not "my sect" that gave this instruction, its God, and it still applies Rom 6:23, just now instead of judgement when God deems fit its is the last day as shown by scripture posted more than once. God is longsuffering and longs for us to repent and turn from sin and turn to Him obeying Him because we love Him, following in His footsteps He left for us 1 Peter 2:21-22 but God will judge us one day soon and when He comes our fates are sealed Rev 22:11Does your sect enforce the death penalty aspect of the Sabbath or require written legitimate excuses for sinning?
It’s not my position, it’s God's position Heb 10:26-30 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:21-23 Rom 6:23 Rev 22:14-15 etc. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 we are not saved in our sins. Pro 28:13 The penalty of sin is death, God gives us another option, we can trust Him and die to our sins and be reborn in Him, obeying Him and His commandments through His power John 14:15-18 abiding in Him John 15:10 following His example 1 John 2:6 but sadly most harden their hearts Heb 3:7-8 and rebel Rom 8:7-8. If we believed in keeping God's commandments, we would not be having this discussion. I think you are confusing God's Judgements with His commandments. Death is a result of disobedience (Judgement) or the curse of the law. There is no curse when one is in harmony with God, walking in His righteousness Psa 119:172 Heb 8:1 obeying His commandments through faith and love with His Help. John 14:15-18. If we are arguing against this I would consider which side of the battle we are on. Mat 12:30OK, so you forward to the last judgment and sinner people are eternally killed for any sin, period? Is this where your positional claims want to go?
Do I need an angle? what i say will never satisfy you, you are that type What we believe is not important, what is, is doing the will of GOD. Of course sin has implications and penalty but God is forgiving and knows out hearts.Oh, so your angle is now you follow the laws, but if you screw up aka sin, there's no penalty?
Is that your position?
You're labeling law and then ranking it in ways scripture never does. Your also using this to avoid my points and leave them unanswered pretending I don't know enough.Then Explain to me the distinction between the commandments and the laws added by moses and why they were added.
well all experts in scripture will disagree with you. I also disagree with you, so in a nutshell, you cannot answer and will not look for the truth as you prefer darkness instead of the Light that the word of GOD gives us. There is a spirit of contradiction within you, I wish you could see that. No point for me going further, I have done what I could to help but you refuse to see. In every discussion we had in the past it was the same, I can see you have not changed since then, contradicting everyone on everything.You're labeling law and then ranking it in ways scripture never does. Your also using this to avoid my points and leave them unanswered pretending I don't know enough.
Christ is asked which commandment is the greatest. He doesn't make up a commandment on the spot, he quotes existing commandments calling them the 2 greatest. He us not summarizing he quotes actual commandments. You're welcome to be pedantic about law but your argument is with Christ not me. He's the one that calls these the greatest, he's the one who quotes outside of the 10 and he is the one who says all the law and prophets hang upon these two.
But you'd rather play avoidance and pretend I'm not informed enough of law to know better. Next thing you will be saying is Peter says Paul is too hard to understand Soni can quote him either. I've heard the arguments and where it may be a starting point alone only lays out bias and is an unwillingness to approach it critically.
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