J
Jet Black
Guest
This bit is identical to the previous thread, which was destroyed by people replying to dad's waffle. please don't wreck this thread by replying to such waffle again.
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Why was Tiktaalik where the scientists predicted it would be?
While the creationists are busy arguing over whether Tiktaalik is a fish or a terrestrial animal (would that make it a beast or a creeping thing) and failing to agree with one another, precious few have actually addressed how the fossil itself was found. That will be the focus of this thread.
Using the previously found tetrapods as a reference, a range of radiometrically determined ages was found in which the tetrapods appear. This period is referred to as the devonian, since it has the same radiomatric age as the rocks of this age first determined in Devon, UK. Utilizing our knowledge of plate tectonics we can reconstruct a map of the world as it would have appeared that length of time ago, and we find that there was a continent, which has been named the "Euramerican landmass" since it shares rock from what we now know as Europe and America. So using both the radiometric dates and the knowledge of plate tectonics, it is possible to identify regions where we would find rocks of certain ages. Analysing the rocks can give an indication of how they were formed, for example it is pretty clear when a particular rock formed in a river basin or such. Bringing all this information together, the paleontologists along with the geologists identified a previously unexplored area which had the right radiometric ages and physical properties to slop it in the devonian, inbetween the radiometric ages determined by previous tetrapod finds. Since it is inbetween previous finds, we would expect to find intermediate organisms. This is where Tiktaalik was found; In the Nunavut territory, southern Ellesmere Island, near the eastern arm of Bird Fiord, N77° 09.808' W86° 16.151'. Bear in mind the majorits of the other fossils were found in greenland and finland, so it is not immediately obvious to search northern canada unless one expects the two to have been united.
So how is it, that not using any YEC theory whatsoever, and relying on radiometric dating, which according to YECs does not work, and the combination of this with conventional plate tectonics (which according to YECs is wrong) and picking a time period between two groups of tetrapods (which according to YECs should not matter because they were all created together), that scientists could find a rock formation on a different (current) continent to the one on which the other fossils were originally found, with a particular set of radiological properties, and find exactly the sort of fossil they were looking for, one that had never been found before?
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and now I add a bit.
Furthermore, not only is the radiomatric age of Tiktaalik intermediate to the other tetrapod transitionals, but the features are too. Claims that Tiktaalik were a large tadpole or a crocodile were thoroughly dismantled here.
There are a large number of morphological features intermediate between the earlier and later tetrapods, from the numbers of bones in the skull, the structure of the jaw, positions and articulation of the bones in the limbs, features of the gills and opercular system, imbricate ribs and so on. This isn't an argument about whether this is a fossil transitional or not, the fact is that it is intermediate between earlier and later tetrapods (in that it does have features partially like one and partially like the other). The question is why can the scientists predict, without ever having seen the said fossil before, where a fossil with certain characteristics should be.
The only objection into which anyone put effort was texasSky's extremely weak objection that
That completely ignores the intermediate nature of the found fossil, both in terms of temporal age and cranial and skeletal features. It is no explanation at all for why, if you dig in rocks that are intermediate in age between two sets of quite different tetrapods, that you will find tetrapods that are morphologically intermediate between the two.
--------------------------
Why was Tiktaalik where the scientists predicted it would be?
While the creationists are busy arguing over whether Tiktaalik is a fish or a terrestrial animal (would that make it a beast or a creeping thing) and failing to agree with one another, precious few have actually addressed how the fossil itself was found. That will be the focus of this thread.
Using the previously found tetrapods as a reference, a range of radiometrically determined ages was found in which the tetrapods appear. This period is referred to as the devonian, since it has the same radiomatric age as the rocks of this age first determined in Devon, UK. Utilizing our knowledge of plate tectonics we can reconstruct a map of the world as it would have appeared that length of time ago, and we find that there was a continent, which has been named the "Euramerican landmass" since it shares rock from what we now know as Europe and America. So using both the radiometric dates and the knowledge of plate tectonics, it is possible to identify regions where we would find rocks of certain ages. Analysing the rocks can give an indication of how they were formed, for example it is pretty clear when a particular rock formed in a river basin or such. Bringing all this information together, the paleontologists along with the geologists identified a previously unexplored area which had the right radiometric ages and physical properties to slop it in the devonian, inbetween the radiometric ages determined by previous tetrapod finds. Since it is inbetween previous finds, we would expect to find intermediate organisms. This is where Tiktaalik was found; In the Nunavut territory, southern Ellesmere Island, near the eastern arm of Bird Fiord, N77° 09.808' W86° 16.151'. Bear in mind the majorits of the other fossils were found in greenland and finland, so it is not immediately obvious to search northern canada unless one expects the two to have been united.
So how is it, that not using any YEC theory whatsoever, and relying on radiometric dating, which according to YECs does not work, and the combination of this with conventional plate tectonics (which according to YECs is wrong) and picking a time period between two groups of tetrapods (which according to YECs should not matter because they were all created together), that scientists could find a rock formation on a different (current) continent to the one on which the other fossils were originally found, with a particular set of radiological properties, and find exactly the sort of fossil they were looking for, one that had never been found before?
------------------------
and now I add a bit.
Furthermore, not only is the radiomatric age of Tiktaalik intermediate to the other tetrapod transitionals, but the features are too. Claims that Tiktaalik were a large tadpole or a crocodile were thoroughly dismantled here.
There are a large number of morphological features intermediate between the earlier and later tetrapods, from the numbers of bones in the skull, the structure of the jaw, positions and articulation of the bones in the limbs, features of the gills and opercular system, imbricate ribs and so on. This isn't an argument about whether this is a fossil transitional or not, the fact is that it is intermediate between earlier and later tetrapods (in that it does have features partially like one and partially like the other). The question is why can the scientists predict, without ever having seen the said fossil before, where a fossil with certain characteristics should be.
The only objection into which anyone put effort was texasSky's extremely weak objection that
That completely ignores the intermediate nature of the found fossil, both in terms of temporal age and cranial and skeletal features. It is no explanation at all for why, if you dig in rocks that are intermediate in age between two sets of quite different tetrapods, that you will find tetrapods that are morphologically intermediate between the two.
