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This is what I pay attention to but I am sure the church builders had another in mind.
Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Consider that the whole reason we found disfavour with God was due to our discovery of self awareness. We took the knowledge of good and evil to become gods like God but also self determined what good and evil were, usually to serve self and not others. We put our will before the will of God and sought gain at the expense of others.
A reversal of that attitude is called repentance, not only change but an understanding why God's will is always better than our own and His will that we love all as self would eliminate any strife and sorrow and division we create upon this world we have made in our own image.
If Paul taught the Gospel of the Kingdom rather than the gospel of salvation accredited to him then He taught the same Gospel as Jesus and the Apostles. The church however found the Kingdom an inconvenience especially when it shunned it to rejoin the world of man to work in tandem and to become a worldly power itself. It has always found it convenient to refer to Paul's religion building epistles rather than Jesus' teachings which condemn it for it's hypocrisy, a gentile version of the Pharisee's temple.What makes Paul's message different, if any?
So, are you saying that the cross isn't necessary... or necessary? Did Christ have to die or not?Yes and Jesus said repeatedly His good news was of the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...
etc.
God didn't kill Him, man did. God simply said nice try and not only resurrected Him, but due to His work established the Kingdom. What made Jesus worthy? He did nothing of His own accord but only the will of the Father. Man prefers to do the opposite, avoiding repentance especially when it becomes an inconvenience to our self interests. It's funny that even when given a gift of a second chance, most refuse to let go of self in favour of others as commanded.So, are you saying that the cross isn't necessary... or necessary? Did Christ have to die or not?
Why and when are as inseparable as the beginning and the end.
God didn't kill Him, man did. God simply said nice try and not only resurrected Him, but due to His work established the Kingdom. What made Jesus worthy? He did nothing of His own accord but only the will of the Father. Man prefers to do the opposite, avoiding repentance especially when it becomes an inconvenience to our self interests. It's funny that even when given a gift of a second chance, most refuse to let go of self in favour of others as commanded.
I know you liked my post and did not answer my question to your personal experience with atonement. You later wrote this response supporting substitution, but where is substitution in the atonement process?I know this was addressed to timothyu but it's a good question and my answer would be that all four Gospels talk about the coming of God's Kingdom. Jesus says “The Kingdom of God is at hand.” Looking at the crucifixion with the crown of thorns and "king of the Jews" label it seems to be a kind of enthronment but a very lonely and painful one to go through, not at all like an earthly enthronment with all the pomp and circumstance.
The Bible teaches that this crucifixion overthrows all the dark powers of the world, death and corruption, and Jesus becomes king and his new Kingdom begins. Again, if we ask just how did it do this, perhaps we'lll never really understand it and it will remain a deep mystery. But the Bible makes clear that he has taken the full weight of evil upon Himself and so he died as our representative and therefore as our substitute.
I believe the meaning of this starting of God's Kingdom is that we are meant to work for Kingdom in the power of the Holy Spirit and God will use all the good and kind deeds that we do when he finally ushers in the new heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1;4: "Then I saw 'a new heaven and a new earth,' for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea...'He will wipe every tear from their eyes."
Had He not represented a counter-culture which ran opposite to the very foundations of mankind;'s thinking, then no He needn't have died. But man kills that which upsets the apple cart. There was no other outcome to re-introducing the love all as self concept previously given to and rejected by the Hebrew people. Jesus was sent on a suicide mission. (def: a task which is so dangerous for the people involved that they are not expected to survive) Besides, you cannot be the first resurrected without dying first.Did Christ have to die?
He trusted in the Father to fulfill the Father's plan. Remember, Jesus said He did nothing of His own accord.Another thing.. Christ is God... God didn't resurrect Him.. Christ Himself....defeated death.
Had He not represented a counter-culture which ran opposite to the very foundations of mankind;'s thinking, then no He needn't have died. But man kills that which upsets the apple cart. There was no other outcome to re-introducing the love all as self concept previously given to and rejected by the Hebrew people. Jesus was sent on a suicide mission. (def: a task which is so dangerous for the people involved that they are not expected to survive) Besides, you cannot be the first resurrected without dying first.
He trusted in the Father to fulfill the Father's plan. Remember, Jesus said He did nothing of His own accord.
I know you liked my post and did not answer my question to your personal experience with atonement. You later wrote this response supporting substitution, but where is substitution in the atonement process?
I have not solved the problem of where to begin the explanation, but it might be best to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement learned from actually individually personally going through the atonement process. Christians lack this experience and instead have developed preconceived ideas of atonement from poor theories.
First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.
Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.
The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.
God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.
The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:
Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want any time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.
Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself, it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.
We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.
Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).
The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.
Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.
Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.
Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).
Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship.
We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.
Please think up some questions to ask me.
The best way I have ever heard it explained is this:
A wealthy judge (God) has a child (humanity). He loves this child, one day this child stands before him, guilty of a crime in which the fine for the crime is too expensive and he knows his child can never pay off.
This judge can not compromise his position as judge, otherwise he is no longer fair and righteous. In his compromise of justice, he would be himself corrupt.
So, to remain just as judge... he finds his child guilty of the crime they committed and in doing so, assigns the proper penalty for the crime.
Then, he steps out of his role as judge and takes up his position as a loving and merciful father. Pulls out his wallet and pays the fine for his child.
In doing so, this judge has not compromised justice, nor has he become corrupt. He found the defendant guilty. The fine for the crime, paid.
It is up to the child whether they accept the price the father paid for them.... or they can foolishly deny him and insist that "they can pay the fine on their own merit"... which... is too high a price. (In this case the price is perfection... in which... all but Christ fall short)
God can not abide sin in His presence any more than you could abide the most vile stench you can imagine. You would track it down and remove it far from you. Just as God must do with sin.
God, being both a loving father and a righteous judge unchanging and perfect, He can not compromise who He is, to do so would be to corruption and imperfection.
As judge, His judgement is that all of humanity is worthy to be removed from His presence (because sin is on each and everyone of us) from Hitler to Mother Theresa. The worst to the "best" of us.
Having passed the righteous and uncompromised judgement.
He then fulfilled His other position as a loving and merciful Father and provided through Himself, the price for our punishment to be paid through Jesus.
By doing so, He maintains who He is, unchanging as Holy and righteous judge.... AND merciful loving Father.
With judgement and verdict passed down and with the penalty paid.... "it is done."
Now, those that truly belong to Him and accept that He paid for their crimes.... recieve freedom... those that reject His gift of mercy, the penalty is still theirs to pay and it is a price so high.... they can never afford to pay it and as such... will be removed far from His presence.
Maybe I am thick, but what is the point of your answer here! I try to respond but I have no idea why you are saying such a cryptic statement.
If Paul taught the Gospel of the Kingdom rather than the gospel of salvation accredited to him then He taught the same Gospel as Jesus and the Apostles.
Sounds pretty complicated.. Not sure what you are even trying to say.
Let me ask...
Would there be salvation for us, through Christ, if He did not die on the cross?
bonus questions:.
Would there be salvation for us, through Christ, if He had of sinned?
Would there be salvation for us, through Christ, if He did not rise again?
A mirrored reflection? One who does only the will of the Father so is like the Father? One in purpose with different attributes which sets one at the right hand of the Father. People who only see Jesus as God forget He also reminded us who we were, extensions of God that He used to work through in this creation."If you have seen me you have seen the Father"
Yes from the other end of the path. Jesus foretold everything. There would be no need to preach death, burial and resurrection without the reason, the Kingdom. There would be no need to preach a Gospel of the Kingdom if the future King dd not first do what was required of Him to bring it about. The Kingdom was not of this world.. everyone dies.. The Hebrew people were not ignorant of the Kingdom or the future life it represented. The gentiles were.Were the 12 also preaching Jesus's death burial and resurrection during the 4 Gospels?
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