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Why is it not a choice? An easy choice is still a choice.
But if you are arguing that God made us with free will (and therefore sin) so that we would choose to follow him, then gives us a stupid choice like "Either come with me, or suffer for all eternity at the hand of my good chap Satan here," what was the point of giving us free will?
An easy choice is no choice at all.
Believe it or not, many people actually chose the latter. It's easier and the short-term payoff is much more rewarding.But if you are arguing that God made us with free will (and therefore sin) so that we would choose to follow him, then gives us a stupid choice like "Either come with me, or suffer for all eternity at the hand of my good chap Satan here," what was the point of giving us free will?
By definition, it is.An easy choice is no choice at all.
So if sin cannot exist without free will, then that must be how he created us this way. But if when we go to heaven, and we are freed from sin, that means our free will is stripped as well. So does that mean that heaven is just as silly as creating us as mindless robots?
It sounds to me like you're trying to pass the buck. As Searching For Christ said, God may have granted us the ability to sin, but ultimately, we're responsible for our actions. We're the ones who choose to sin.The problem with logic is that it can always be countered by a new set of argument. Either God created sin directly or indirectly by giving us free will; either way, God is responsible for sin. There is no getting around that.
I don't think any logical explanation helps here. God does what he does. He is the author and life is his story, which means he can do nothing.
The problem with logic is that it can always be countered by a new set of argument. Either God created sin directly or indirectly by giving us free will; either way, God is responsible for sin. There is no getting around that.
Shame on you, that's something you should have outgrown in grade school.
It sounds to me like you're trying to pass the buck. As Searching For Christ said, God may have granted us the ability to sin, but ultimately, we're responsible for our actions. We're the ones who choose to sin.
Not if: "in every feasible world where God creates free creatures, some of these creatures freely choose to do evil. In such a case, it is the creatures themselves who bring about evil, and God can do nothing to prevent their doing so, apart from refusing to actualize any such worlds. Thus, it is possible that every world feasible for God which contains free creatures is a world with sin and evil." (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, Moreland & Craig, pg 539)God gives X free will, and X uses that free will to torture Y. But since God is all-knowing, he knows beforehand that X is going to use his free will to torture Y. In other words, God knows Y is going to be tortured but allows it to happen just the same.
No logic will convince Y that it is only X's free will that is responsible; Y might as well say that since God gave X free will, it is only God who is ultimately responsible.
Not if: "in every feasible world where God creates free creatures, some of these creatures freely choose to do evil. In such a case, it is the creatures themselves who bring about evil, and God can do nothing to prevent their doing so, apart from refusing to actualize any such worlds. Thus, it is possible that every world feasible for God which contains free creatures is a world with sin and evil." (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, Moreland & Craig, pg 539)
Not if: "in every feasible world where God creates free creatures, some of these creatures freely choose to do evil. In such a case, it is the creatures themselves who bring about evil, and God can do nothing to prevent their doing so, apart from refusing to actualize any such worlds. Thus, it is possible that every world feasible for God which contains free creatures is a world with sin and evil." (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, Moreland & Craig, pg 539)
Being a first-timer here, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not, but it's my best bet.
The other night we had a bible study on the topic of predestination. Mind-bending stuff, but while discussing that we moved on to the topic of God knowing us at the time of creation, way before we were born. Which raised some pretty hefty questions for me.
Provided that the Lord is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing, even about future events), and all-loving:
These questions have been plaguing me for weeks, I would gratefully accept anyone's thoughts on this.
- Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!
- Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.
- What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?
Ok, don't worry about the fact that I serve if that's what you mean. We actually have some strict rules about using force. Besides that I'm a fueler, I don't do the combat arms things except in extreme circumstances. Trust me, what I do for a living has little to do with these silly debates, it's just a pass time.
Have a nice day
Mark
It's a good point, but God is omnipotent. By saying that he can't create a world with free creatures and sin, we strip him of his all-powerful nature.
He can do anything, so why not create free creatures without the sin?
Again, that sounds like a desperate attempt to pass the buck. It's almost like you've got an agenda to blame God.No logic will convince Y that it is only X's free will that is responsible; Y might as well say that since God gave X free will, it is only God who is ultimately responsible.
Again, that sounds like a desperate attempt to pass the buck. It's almost like you've got an agenda to blame God.
That's like saying God is the author of darkness, which He is not. Darkness existed in the beginning (Gen 1:2) and God created light to overcome it. Darkness is simply the absence of light. As has been said previously, a similar analogy applies to good and evil.I am not. But it is true that God is the author of sin. If not, it's like saying man is more powerful than God.
Who is "more powerful" in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the younger son (who rebelled) or his father (who gave his sons the possibility of rebelling)?I am not. But it is true that God is the author of sin. If not, it's like saying man is more powerful than God.
That's like saying God is the author of darkness, which He is not. Darkness existed in the beginning (Gen 1:2) and God created light to overcome it. Darkness is simply the absence of light. As has been said previously, a similar analogy applies to good and evil.
Again, I ask: Do you not see free will as a gift? Would you rather live as a robot? Can a robot love?
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