Why Was Paul More Successful Than Jesus ?

[ABenShema]

Why was Paul so much more successful than Jesus in 'single-handedly' accumulating converts and converting people to what he called 'Christianity'?

Could the reason be that Paul's Gospel taught that all one had to do to obtain Eternal Life and Salvation was merely 'believe' in and trust (i.e. have faith in) Jesus as the Lord, and 'believe' that His death was the final sacrifice which would cleanse all faithful 'believers' forever of all their sins (something which Jesus did not teach).

Certainly a very 'nice' and 'smug' belief system, indeed - no real effort required on the part of the believer! Very suited to those who were too busy to really devote and dedicate themselves to Spirituality.

When one analyses this doctrine, the great appeal it offers to people who are merely 'lukewarm' about God/Truth (and are thus not really interested in dedicated discipleship), should become abundantly apparent.

Also, one would think that the great Master - Jesus - Himself would be the most successful at teaching ~ but Jesus only ended up with, perhaps, a few hundred or so true disciples (in Acts 1:15 it mentions only about 120 disciples gathered together after the crucifixion ~ on such a momentous occasion!).

Paul, however, must have converted litterally thousands, and we know he started many churches throughout Asia-Minor - all the way to Rome. He even collected money from his own communities to help the poor of the church in Jerusalem. Then just look how this new religion, as taught by Paul, simply 'took off' - an amazing success story which was never achieved by Jesus (or his 12 original Apostles) and His genuine revelations of Truth - which required one's total dedication - N.B. what Jesus told the 'rich young man' Mark 10:17-24. If Paul had taught such things, no doubt he wouldn't have had such a successful career, either!

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

 

[NewToLife]

Why was Paul so much more successful than Jesus in 'single-handedly' accumulating converts and converting people to what he called 'Christianity'?

Since St Paul is the self declared slave of Christ your question does not make a lot of sense. What St Paul achieved was achieved in the name of and by the power of Christ. Without Christ St Paul would have achieved nothing of note.

 

[ABenShema]

Since St Paul is the self declared slave of Christ your question does not make a lot of sense. What St Paul achieved was achieved in the name of and by the power of Christ. Without Christ St Paul would have achieved nothing of note.

Anyone can declare themselves to be anything they like, but it does not mean it is true. People often flock to leaders who offer them something which brings them some kind of comfort ~ psychological, material, or pseudo-spiritual. Few people actually followed Jesus while he was on Earth, but many flocked to Paul. Remember what Jesus said: few will enter the narrow gate which leads to Life.

If you would like to read a detailed critique on Paul (entitled: "Paul ~ False Apostle & First 'Christian'.") CLICK HERE.

PLU

 

[ABenShema]

Why was Paul so much more successful than Jesus in 'single-handedly' accumulating converts and converting people to what he called 'Christianity'?

Could the reason be that Paul's Gospel taught that all one had to do to obtain Eternal Life and Salvation was merely 'believe' in and trust (i.e. have faith in) Jesus as the Lord, and 'believe' that His death was the final sacrifice which would cleanse all faithful 'believers' forever of all their sins (something which Jesus did not teach).

Certainly a very 'nice' and 'smug' belief system, indeed - no real effort required on the part of the believer! Very suited to those who were too busy to really devote and dedicate themselves to Spirituality.

When one analyses this doctrine, the great appeal it offers to people who are merely 'lukewarm' about God/Truth (and are thus not really interested in dedicated discipleship), should become abundantly apparent.

Also, one would think that the great Master - Jesus - Himself would be the most successful at teaching ~ but Jesus only ended up with, perhaps, a few hundred or so true disciples (in Acts 1:15 it mentions only about 120 disciples gathered together after the crucifixion ~ on such a momentous occasion!).

Paul, however, must have converted litterally thousands, and we know he started many churches throughout Asia-Minor - all the way to Rome. He even collected money from his own communities to help the poor of the church in Jerusalem. Then just look how this new religion, as taught by Paul, simply 'took off' - an amazing success story which was never achieved by Jesus (or his 12 original Apostles) and His genuine revelations of Truth - which required one's total dedication - N.B. what Jesus told the 'rich young man' Mark 10:17-24. If Paul had taught such things, no doubt he wouldn't have had such a successful career, either!

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Does no one here have any opinions on Paul?

 

[david01]

I have opinions on Paul, as well as Jesus. Paul's gospel is identical to that proclaimed by Jesus. Throughout the Gospel of John Jesus proclaims that belief (or faith) is the means of salvation/ Paul did not invent this notion and it is certainly difficult, if not impossible, to find any roots of it in his background as the Pharisee of Pharisees. So, the dichotomy presented here is false. Given the fact that Jesus spent three years in public ministry and limited that primarily to twelve men and that Paul had at least ten times the amount of time, it is not unreasonable to see disproportionate results. Also, Paul was not the only one preaching the gospel. All of the apostles (except Judas, of course) were doing it along with Barnabas, Mark, Luke, Apollos, Aquila, Priscilla, Rufus, Tychicus, Aristarchus, Synteche, Titus, Timothy, and a multitude of others.

 

[ABenShema]

I have opinions on Paul, as well as Jesus. Paul's gospel is identical to that proclaimed by Jesus. Throughout the Gospel of John Jesus proclaims that belief (or faith) is the means of salvation/ Paul did not invent this notion and it is certainly difficult, if not impossible, to find any roots of it in his background as the Pharisee of Pharisees. So, the dichotomy presented here is false. Given the fact that Jesus spent three years in public ministry and limited that primarily to twelve men and that Paul had at least ten times the amount of time, it is not unreasonable to see disproportionate results. Also, Paul was not the only one preaching the gospel. All of the apostles (except Judas, of course) were doing it along with Barnabas, Mark, Luke, Apollos, Aquila, Priscilla, Rufus, Tychicus, Aristarchus, Synteche, Titus, Timothy, and a multitude of others.

Paul and his followers / converts taught a very different gospel to that of Jesus and his original Apostles / disciples. For evidence of this SEE (CLICK) HERE.

PLU

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Why was Paul so much more successful than Jesus in 'single-handedly' accumulating converts and converting people to what he called 'Christianity'?

Jesus' mission on earth was to Israel:

Matthew 15:24 He [Jesus] answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Paul was commissioned by Jesus to spread His gospel, especially to the Gentiles:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord [Jesus] said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

Acts 13:47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us [Paul and Barnabas]: 'I have appointed you to be a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Acts 26:22-23 I [Paul] am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen-- 23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

So its a bit of a misnomer to try and separate Paul's commission from Jesus' activities, since Scripture - Acts in particular - presents them as interrelated.

Could the reason be that Paul's Gospel taught that all one had to do to obtain Eternal Life and Salvation was merely 'believe' in and trust (i.e. have faith in) Jesus as the Lord, and 'believe' that His death was the final sacrifice which would cleanse all faithful 'believers' forever of all their sins (something which Jesus did not teach).

One cannot import modern day ideas back into Paul and Jesus. Its difficult for anyone to sustain that Paul held to some type of "easy-believism" when he and other Christians were persecuted and suffered for their beliefs.


LDG

 

[ABenShema]

Jesus' mission on earth was to Israel

And what/who do you think Israel is? Do you believe Israel to have been some kind of 'ethnic' or 'racial' group favoured by God? If so, God would be a racist!

No, for a complete explanation of the 'TRUE' ISRAEL see (CLICK) HERE.

Paul was commissioned by Jesus to spread His gospel, especially to the Gentiles

So says Paul ~ a false teacher who also did not understand the true meaning of ISRAEL!

So its a bit of a misnomer to try and separate Paul's commission from Jesus' activities, since Scripture - Acts in particular - presents them as interrelated.

ACTS was written by a disciple of Paul (probably Luke) so what do you expect it to say?

One cannot import modern day ideas back into Paul and Jesus.

Time brings no changes to Spiritual TRUTH!

Its difficult for anyone to sustain that Paul held to some type of "easy-believism" when he and other Christians were persecuted and suffered for their beliefs.

Many Muslim terrorists are prepared to suffer and die for their false beliefs ~ so what, does this make them right?

PLU

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

And what/who do you think Israel is? Do you believe Israel to have been some kind of 'ethnic' or 'racial' group favoured by God? If so, God would be a racist!

No, for a complete explanation of the 'TRUE' ISRAEL see(CLICK) HERE.

Sorry, your argument doesn't carry any weight in light of how Scripture uses the term "Israel" in many, many places -

2 Samuel 7:23-24 23 And who is like your people Israel-- the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? 24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God.

Joshua 3:17 The priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan, while all Israel passed by until the whole nation had completed the crossing on dry ground.

Even your term "TRUE ISRAEL" is an assumption that there is also an "ISRAEL."

If you are trying to argue that Paul's letters - and Acts - aren't a part of Scripture, then that's just not going to fly in this part of the forums (Christian Faith-->Theology-->Christian History). Non-Christians can post in almost all sections of the forums, but the moderating is more strict in places. Instead of risking a deleted post or two its better to argue your point in non-Christian religions here.

Besides, you'll probably get some people to agree with you there. Plus I can ask more detailed questions about your beliefs instead of swatting your arguments like flies.


So you refer to your beliefs as Gnostic? And you are the admin of that website you cited?

LDG

 

[ABenShema]

Sorry, your argument doesn't carry any weight in light of how Scripture uses the term "Israel" in many, many places -

2 Samuel 7:23-24 23 And who is like your people Israel-- the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? 24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God.

Joshua 3:17 The priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan, while all Israel passed by until the whole nation had completed the crossing on dry ground.

You must read these passages in the original Hebrew in order to understand correctly. There are two important words in Hebrew used for "people" ~ i.e. goyim, which is usually translated simply as "Gentiles" or "nations" (other than Israelites) and actually comes from a root meaning 'dead body', 'corpse' (i.e. a metaphor for 'Spiritually dead', "un-enlightened" people).

Then there is the other term (spelled: 'ayin mem) which is translated variously as "people" (referring to Israel), "nation" (also referring to Israel), "countrymen" (ditto), "father's relatives", "one's own people" (e.g. God's own people)!

These terms did not refer to different 'races' of people, but simply to those who either KNEW God (the Spiritual Israel), or those who did not (the Spiritual 'corpses', the 'dead', i.e. the 'gentiles').

Even your term "TRUE ISRAEL" is an assumption that there is also an "ISRAEL."

Certainly the term has been misunderstood and misused for many centuries, and thus is now commonly used also for a racial group ~ the Jews! However, all Spiritually ignorant people, whether of Jewish decent or not are strictly goyim ~ Spiritually dead!

If you are trying to argue that Paul's letters - and Acts - aren't a part of Scripture, then that's just not going to fly in this part of the forums (Christian Faith-->Theology-->Christian History). Non-Christians can post in almost all sections of the forums, but the moderating is more strict in places. Instead of risking a deleted post or two its better to argue your point in non-Christian religions here.

But this is not a "non-Christian religion" issue? What are you frightened of ~ the TRUTH?

Besides, you'll probably get some people to agree with you there. Plus I can ask more detailed questions about your beliefs instead of swatting your arguments like flies.

I don't need anyone to agree with me, open minded people should be allowed to see all sides and decide for themselves. You arguments merely sound like those of the Pharisees who swatted Jesus' arguments like flies.

So you refer to your beliefs as Gnostic? And you are the admin of that website you cited?

It is a contradiction of terms to refer to Knowledge (Gnosis) as 'belief'. Beliefs and Knowledge are as different as night and day, darkness and Light.

PLU

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jesus came to bring grace and truth to the Old Testament. But what does that mean?

I think it means that Jesus was to fulfill all prophecies and in doing so save us from eternal damnation. Until Jesus did all these things no one could be saved and Jesus could not build his kingdom for us.

Jesus came to start his church and he had the Twelve. After his death/resurrection Jesus made that final and perfect sacrifice for all and he went to Heaven but he left us the Paraclete or the Holy Spirit.

It was with the Holy Spirit that the Apostles and the following disciples were able to perform the things Jesus did. With out the Holy Spirit they could not have done miracles. It is also true that the Holy Spirit enpowered these men and they were fearless and knowing and wise and all those things that we receive as gifts from the Holy Spirit.

For instance... After Jesus was risen and before Pentecost the Twelve prayed and fasted for days/weeks too afraid to do anything and not knowing what to do. But when those tongues of fire came and they received the Holy Spirit they went out without fear and knowing what to do. It was that day that Peter netted 3,000 souls.

You see? It was not the men but God working through the men that these things were possible.

What is the Holy Spirit but God? Who is Jesus but God? Who is the Father but God? You see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God but we are told of them as three persons though we also know there is only one God so we call this a Trinity.

So when Paul was evangalizing as Jesus commanded he did it with the Holy Spirit which is Jesus as well. So your case is mute.

Also consider that Paul was tormented by an evil and he asked God to remove it but God said that when he was weak (from this evil) that Paul was also stronger. Why? Because when Paul was weak from this evil he was also in need of God and that is when God works through us best, when we need and ask him for help.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

You must read these passages in the original Hebrew in order to understand correctly.

I can read the original Hebrew just fine. Your arguments about the Hebrew - if we can call them that - do nothing about the meaning of the cited passages.

Certainly the term has been misunderstood and misused for many centuries, and thus is now commonly used also for a racial group ~ the Jews! However, all Spiritually ignorant people, whether of Jewish decent or not are strictly goyim ~ Spiritually dead!

So in other words you are saying all Christians are "spiritually ignorant people."

And that Christians can only get the truth from Gnostics? No thanks...

But this is not a "non-Christian religion" issue? What are you frightened of ~ the TRUTH?

I already know the Truth. Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

I don't need anyone to agree with me, open minded people should be allowed to see all sides and decide for themselves.

I have no problem with that.

You arguments merely sound like those of the Pharisees who swatted Jesus' arguments like flies.

Actually it was Jesus who answered the Pharisees' arguments, rather than what you have stated. You should read the Bible more often.

It is a contradiction of terms to refer to Knowledge (Gnosis) as 'belief'. Beliefs and Knowledge are as different as night and day, darkness and Light.

Gee, and just to think I thought one's own beliefs and knowledge all fit in the same noggin.

So in other words, you are a Gnostic. Christianity and Gnosticism have been at odds with one another for many centuries.


LDG

 

[ABenShema]

For instance... After Jesus was risen and before Pentecost the Twelve prayed and fasted for days/weeks too afraid to do anything and not knowing what to do. But when those tongues of fire came and they received the Holy Spirit they went out without fear and knowing what to do.

Yes indeed, the vision of the 'Tongues of Fire' or 'Light' of God, also referred to as the 'Fire Baptism', and the same as Moses witnessed on the mountain of God which he described as an eternal 'burning bush', i.e. it was not consumed! ~ these are descriptions of a genuine Gnostic experience also known as the 'Beatific Vision' or 'Vision of the Shekhinah'. This is the experience, and the ONLY experience, which gives genuine re-birth into the Spirit. No other!

So when Paul was evangalizing as Jesus commanded he did it with the Holy Spirit which is Jesus as well. So your case is mute.
Also consider that Paul was tormented by an evil and he asked God to remove it but God said that when he was weak (from this evil) that Paul was also stronger. Why? Because when Paul was weak from this evil he was also in need of God and that is when God works through us best, when we need and ask him for help.

See (CLICK) here for the truth about Paul!

PLU

 

[Secundulus]

Recommend this reading

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.html

Irenaeus: Against Heresies

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Recommend this reading

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.html

Irenaeus: Against Heresies

There is nothing new under the sun.

Good point.

The early church dealt with many false teachings and we can find much in their writings where they had to reprove those teaching false doctrines.

 

[Secundulus]

To: ABenShema

A few years ago I seriously investigated gnosticism as an alternative to faith that I thought I had lost. I read all the gnostic writings and read and listened to everything I could find on the internet. So, I am not entirely ignorant of your beliefs.

If you want the true hidden wisdom it is freely available for the asking. All you have to do is surrender to Christ and he will give you what you seek.

Turn to Christ, not the gnostic one, but the risen one who even now lives and is waiting for you.

 

[ABenShema]

To: ABenShema

A few years ago I seriously investigated gnosticism as an alternative to faith that I thought I had lost. I read all the gnostic writings and read and listened to everything I could find on the internet. So, I am not entirely ignorant of your beliefs.

If you want the true hidden wisdom it is freely available for the asking. All you have to do is surrender to Christ and he will give you what you seek.

Turn to Christ, not the gnostic one, but the risen one who even now lives and is waiting for you.

If you think that by genuine Gnosis and Gnosticism is the practice of following any historic sect or ancient religious texts, you are very mistaken. The path of Gnosis is solitary, and requires no books! Neither does it involve any beliefs, but purely experiential first-hand KNOWLEDGE of Elohim.

Yes, the true hidden wisdom is freely available to all those who sincerely seek with all the Heart and soul. And yes, all you need to do is to surrender to the living Messiah (not any who lived in history and have now passed away from this planet!). Yes, turn to the Messiah who now lives and is waiting for you.

PLU

 

[JacktheCatholic]

If you think that by genuine Gnosis and Gnosticism is the practice of following any historic sect or ancient religious texts, you are very mistaken. The path of Gnosis is solitary, and requires no books! Neither does it involve any beliefs, but purely experiential first-hand KNOWLEDGE of Elohim.

Yes, the true hidden wisdom is freely available to all those who sincerely seek with all the Heart and soul. And yes, all you need to do is to surrender to the living Messiah (not any who lived in history and have now passed away from this planet!). Yes, turn to the Messiah who now lives and is waiting for you.

PLU

I wonder why Gnosticism died by the 4th century?

 

[ABenShema]

I wonder why Gnosticism died by the 4th century?

Genuine Gnosis and Gnosticism never died, it has always been practiced quietly by the 'chosen few' in every part of the world ~ the genuine Mystics/Gnostics, the true lovers of God ~ even though evil religionists have always persecuted them and tried to wipe out the Truth. The Truth will never die, no matter what the religionists do.

If you are a Catholic, what do you feel about your loving church persecuting, torturing, and burning so many people throughout history merely because of their beliefs?

PLU

 

[Saint Melania]

Jesus only preached to the Jews - most of whom rejected him. Paul preached to the Gentiles - and they accepted him by the thousands. What is so hard about this? Jesus specifically said he (personally) was only for the Jew. God intervened in Paul's vision to open up the Gospel for the Gentiles.