WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

BNR32FAN said:

satan and demons believe in Christ. satan worshippers believe in Christ to. The condemned in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 will also believe in Him when they stand before Him on judgement day.

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So in that light, how does 'only those who believe will be saved' apply?

BNR32FAN said:

So hell makes people love God? Just a few seconds in hell and everyone will love Him? Or do you think that people who don’t love God should be admitted into heaven?

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You are completely missing my point. When I wrote "hell", I mean the standard Christian view of hell, not my view of loving restoration. Here's the point, since you missed it.

Assuming the standard Christian view of hell is correct, how much torture would be required to correct the sinful behavior? I estimate that everyone who had a button to push to indicate willing compliance would hit the button within ten seconds. (imagine falling into lava naked) What would be the purpose of an eternity with no hope of escape? Only a sadistic tyrant would create such a situation.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Eternity is a long time. Endless suffering with no hope of escape. No one deserves that.

And frankly, it would only take about ten seconds of that for anyone to change their mind. So, what is the point of an eternity if not sadistic torture?

Saint Steven said:

You are completely missing my point. When I wrote "hell", I mean the standard Christian view of hell, not my view of loving restoration. Here's the point, since you missed it.

Assuming the standard Christian view of hell is correct, how much torture would be required to correct the sinful behavior? I estimate that everyone who had a button to push to indicate willing compliance would hit the button within ten seconds. (imagine falling into lava naked) What would be the purpose of an eternity with no hope of escape? Only a sadistic tyrant would create such a situation.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Eternity is a long time. Endless suffering with no hope of escape. No one deserves that.

And frankly, it would only take about ten seconds of that for anyone to change their mind. So, what is the point of an eternity if not sadistic torture?

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That's always been the main question for me going back to when I was a child. What's the point of eternal torment?

BNR32FAN said:

Or perhaps they had no remorse at all and they were just trying to escape the consequences of their actions. We don’t know for sure exactly what their motivation was but God does.

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I would posit that the churches are full of those who are only there due to the fear of hell. (and the tyrant they were told would send them there if they didn't choose a side)

BNR32FAN said:

... my position is that I’m confident that whatever decision He makes is just and fair because that is His very nature.

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Even if that means incinerating the vast majority of humanity? (countless billions) How is that not tyrannical behavior? (Hitler only incinerated 6 million)

BNR32FAN said:

satan and demons believe in Christ. satan worshippers believe in Christ to. The condemned in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 will also believe in Him when they stand before Him on judgement day.

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But WHAT do they believe about him? Don't you think their fals perceptions will be shattered?

Did you posts this? (seems so)

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t see any point in discussing it any longer since neither of us seem to be able to present any evidence that will convince the other.

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Saint Steven said:

(imagine falling into lava naked)

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As a repressed Englishman, my first thought would be that I'm naked. The fact that I'm falling into burning hot lava would be very much a secondary consideration. So I'd pray to be clad in modest and preferably sports casual clothing and.only then would I turn my attention to the temperature aspect of my predicament.

Sorry for the bizarre post but there's something about the idea of ECT and Christ torturing people forever that destroys my rationality. I can't imagine why.

MMXX said:

That's always been the main question for me going back to when I was a child. What's the point of eternal torment?

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Exactly!
There is no resolution of the sin problem. It just continues for all eternity. UR to the rescue. - lol

Hmm said:

As a repressed Englishman, my first thought would that I'm naked. The fact that I'm falling into burning hot lava would be very much a secondary consideration. So I'd pray to be clad in modest and preferably sports casual clothing and.only then would I turn my attention to the temperature aspect of my predicament.

Sorry for the bizarre post but there's something about the idea of ECT and Christ torturing people forever that destroys my rationality. I can't imagine why though.

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Right.
There should be a shopping area on the way to hell where you get to choose what you will wear for eternity. (and no spending limit)

Of course, anything you buy would be incinerated immediately, so you would be on to the secondary considerations pretty quickly.

Maybe those at "pool side" could have selfies taken as they jumped. Saying things like, "Hey Mom, look at this!" Last chance to make a big splash. Memories to cherish.

Saint Steven said:

Right.
There should be a shopping area on the way to hell where you get to choose what you will wear for eternity. (and no spending limit)

Of course, anything you buy would be incinerated immediately, so you would be on to the secondary considerations pretty quickly.

Maybe those at "pool side" could have selfies taken as they jumped. Saying things like, "Hey Mom, look at this!" Last chance to make a big splash. Memories to cherish.

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I'd say to pick attire made of asbestos, but it's been found to cause cancer. But then again, what hasn't?

Saint Steven said:

There should be a shopping area on the way to hell where you get to choose what you will wear for eternity. (and no spending limit)

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Kayaks might be a popular item as well. Gives you an extra few minutes before secondary considerations.

MMXX said:

That would depend on what hell is. Since according to Peter God is going to incinerate everything He created, including heaven itself, to restore everything to glory, why would that exclude human souls? God designed man to love and worship Him. The sin of this fallen world keeps man from being what he was intended to be. So why couldn't that be restored the same as everything else?

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God designed man with the free will to either choose to love Him or to choose to reject Him. If what your suggesting is true then there would be no need for this world at all. This world was created to cultivate and separate those who would choose to love God from those who would choose to reject Him, so if the ultimate plan was to interfere with free will do that all would love Him then there would be no need for this world at all.

MMXX said:

I'd say to pick attire made of asbestos, but it's been found to cause cancer. But then again, what hasn't?

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Right.
I can imagine the doctor's diagnosis.

"I have bad news and good news."
"The bad news is that you have cancer caused by the asbestos suit you chose to wear when you came here."
"The good news is that this is hell; you can't die from cancer here."

Saint Steven said:

There should be a shopping area on the way to hell where you get to choose what you will wear for eternity. (and no spending limit)

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I'd probably go for something with a padded posterior covering to deal with the pitchforking challenge but with the standard tie and collar effect to preserve that timeless professional image that will still be fashionable even after an eternity of torment.

MMXX said:

So in that light, how does 'only those who believe will be saved' apply?

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The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving? Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God? Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.

Hmm said:

I'd probably go for something with a padded posterior covering to deal with the pitchforking challenge but with the standard tie and collar effect to preserve that timeless professional image that will still be fashionable even after an eternity of torment.

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Yes, classic attire is timeless. - lol
Perfect choice for all eternity.
The latest fashion would be a terrible choice.

Saint Steven said:

You are completely missing my point. When I wrote "hell", I mean the standard Christian view of hell, not my view of loving restoration. Here's the point, since you missed it.

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Loving restoration? Where are you getting this definition of hell from? Every verse I’m familiar with describes hell as a place of torment and destruction.

Saint Steven said:

I would posit that the churches are full of those who are only there due to the fear of hell. (and the tyrant they were told would send them there if they didn't choose a side)

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Who ever said that everyone in the churches will be saved? Many people come to the church at first out of fear and over time develop a love for God, some don’t.

BNR32FAN said:

God designed man with the free will to either choose to love Him or to choose to reject Him. If what your suggesting is true then there would be no need for this world at all. This world was created to cultivate and separate those who would choose to love God from those who would choose to reject Him, so if the ultimate plan was to interfere with free will do that all would love Him then there would be no need for this world at all.

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That's this world. This world and heaven along with it is going to be incinerated
and renewed. I've always heard this world and mankind is not what God originally intended. Our free will is summed up in choosing good and evil. What happens when evil is removed in the New heavens and new earth? Will the removal of sin and evil rob us?

Saint Steven said:

Kayaks might be a popular item as well. Gives you an extra few minutes before secondary considerations.

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If there were no spend limit I would think that ice would be right at the top of my list.