Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

Eliwho · May 22, 2013

Suffer what things? Luke tells us:
18 Then one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place there in these days?” 19 He asked them, “What things?” They replied, “The things about Jesus of Nazareth,[h] who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.[i] Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.

Again, you're reading too much into the text, projecting ideas that are not there. Luke tells us plainly that "these things" refer to the "chief priests" condemning to death and crucifying. This isn't God's wrath, it's the act of sinful men!

I see you got there ahead of me Rick.
But I'll post anyhow.
Seems somebody might need to widen that extensive search?
I was wondering what my 666 post would be.

ISAIAH 53
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief : when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

sunlover1 · May 22, 2013

yogosans14 said:
I believe both Catholics and Protestants will go to Heaven so no need to drag each other down!

God bless

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called the
"Children of God"

prov1810 · May 22, 2013

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)

Catholic Dude said:
That says nothing about the Father pouring out His Wrath on Jesus. To be "made sin" means "to be made a sin offering," nothing to do with undergoing God's wrath.

This may come as a newsflash, but God is angry at sin.

Ex. 4:14; 15:7; Lev. 26:27-33; Num. 11:1; 12:9; 22:22; 25:3; Deut. 3:17; 29:24-29; Josh. 7:1; Judg. 2:14; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Kings 14:15; 15:30; 16:2; 25:53; 2 Kings 13:3; 17:11; 23:19; 1 Chron. 13:10; 2 Chron. 28:25; Ps. 7:11; 11:4-7; Heb. 10:27

Jesus was made sin for us. The thing that God is angry at. He bore God's wrath.

I tried to post a link to BibleGateway for the Scriptures above, but I don't have enough posts. Just C&P the list into the search yourself.

Next up, Propitiation: to make favorable by the appeasement of anger.

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

Eliwho · May 22, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called the
"Children of God"

Aint nobody makin' me do nuffin'.

sunlover1 · May 22, 2013

Eliwho said:
Aint nobody makin' me do nuffin'.

Methinks everybody has their price.

Prayer Circle · May 22, 2013

Catholic Dude said:
Most people don't realize that there are different views of the Atonement out there. Most Protestants (not all), especially Calvinists, believe in a form of Atonement called Penal Substitution. This view teaches that Jesus received the punishment the sinner deserved. Well, if the sinner deserves hellfire, then that's must be what Jesus endured in their place!

I wonder when Jesus commanded his Disciples to go forth into all the world and spread the good news, if he expected the sectarian division that would evolve exponentially over 2000+ years.

Jesus was the son of man. He died on the cross to take the sins of the world upon himself. And after the cross before his resurrection he descended into Hell for three days. He resurrected and returned to the father. It was symbolic of what he'd taught the people and his Disciples who witnessed him alive after they saw him die on the cross thereby knowing his words were truth and the doctrine then salvation for the whole world who would then receive that good news because it wasn't pulp fiction.

God be praised.

Eliwho · May 22, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Methinks everybody has their price.

Could be..........

sunlover1 · May 22, 2013

Eliwho said:
Could be..........

Butter pecan.

Eliwho · May 23, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Butter pecan.

I once heard a greedy ole sinner once say, "you can catch more flies with honey than you can with manure."

Course his honey smelled a little funny.
Nuffin' like a butter pecan muffin'.

I'm purdy hard headed so the Lord had to thump me purdy hard.
Been awhile back.
So it just depends where yuh are and what's needed.
Reckon' it was allright to commend the guy trying to make peace, but it's hardly dragging somebody down when yer correcting them.
Guess I'm an ole meanie, but some uh these kids still need the rod.
The illegitimate ones that is.

sunlover1 · May 23, 2013

Eliwho said:
I once heard a greedy ole sinner once say, "you can catch more flies with honey than you can with manure."

Course his honey smelled a little funny.
Nuffin' like a butter pecan muffin'.

I'm purdy hard headed so the Lord had to thump me purdy hard.
Been awhile back.
So it just depends where yuh are and what's needed.
Reckon' it was allright to commend the guy trying to make peace, but it's hardly dragging somebody down when yer correcting them.
Guess I'm an ole meanie, but some uh these kids still need the rod.
The illegitimate ones that is.

You have a good attitude.
I just realized (reading this post of yours) that when I commended
someone of being a peacemaker, that it somehow caused you to
feel bad.
I need to admit that I had not read your post(S?) so now I have
to go back and see what happened! lol.
I commended him because I thought he had a good attitude.
(No reflection upon you, you have a great attitude too)
I mentioned Butter Pecan because you were talking ice cream
on Fire's thread lol.

LST 1154 · May 23, 2013

Catholic Dude said:
...kindly show a few texts plainly showing the Father poured His Wrath out on Jesus.

I'm curious to see if Protestants really are faithful to that Sola Scriptura thing

Romans 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." Lets look at this in depth.

By Whose blood have we been justified? Jesus Christ's.
Who shall be saved from God's wrath? We [believers in Jesus Christ.]
Who saved us? Him [Jesus Christ.]
What action stopped the wrath of God. [Christ's] blood.
What happened to God's wrath. Because believers in Christ have been justified, Jesus will save them from God's wrath on Judgment Day. But what happens to God's wrath on those who are not justified? To see what happens to them we must go to another passage, John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." So what caused God's wrath to be unleashed only on one group? Because the unbelievers have not been justified. So God's wrath for the believers had to be placed on Someone, and that Someone was the same One whose blood justified them, Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..."
Romans 3:10 "there is none that are righteous, not even one." So everyone is a sinner, no one is righteous and the wrath of God will be revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness, so everyone will suffer from God's wrath EXCEPT the justified people. What happened to God's wrath that He had for the justified people? It must have been placed on the Catalyst Jesus Christ as He is the only thing that differentiates between the two groups of people.

LST

motherprayer · May 23, 2013

yogosans14 said:
I believe both Catholics and Protestants will go to Heaven so no need to drag each other down!

God bless

This! We're ALL wrong about God in some way. Sorry but it has to be said. We're ALL wrong about God in some way.

LST 1154 · May 23, 2013

motherprayer said:
We're ALL wrong about God in some way. Sorry but it has to be said. We're ALL wrong about God in some way.

I've got to agree. With sin being so pervasive in every area of our lives I don't think anyone has their theology 100% correct.

I believe that as long as we follow Christ's command to love God with all our mind, soul, heart and strength and our neighbor as ourselves all will be well on that Day when we stand before Him.

LST

Catholic Dude · May 23, 2013

prov1810 said:
This may come as a newsflash, but God is angry at sin.

Ex. 4:14; 15:7; Lev. 26:27-33; Num. 11:1; 12:9; 22:22; 25:3; Deut. 3:17; 29:24-29; Josh. 7:1; Judg. 2:14; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Kings 14:15; 15:30; 16:2; 25:53; 2 Kings 13:3; 17:11; 23:19; 1 Chron. 13:10; 2 Chron. 28:25; Ps. 7:11; 11:4-7; Heb. 10:27

Not a newsflash at all. I agree with that. The point is, how is that anger/wrath dealt with? Is it dealt with by being appeased, or is it dealt with by venting that wrath on a substitute?

Jesus was made sin for us. The thing that God is angry at. He bore God's wrath.

As I noted earlier, the Greek here for "made sin" means "made a sin offering" as it's used in the OT. Even the language of "He who had no sin" recalls needing a sacrificial animal free of defect. The NASB and NIV in the footnote here even say "sin offering" for this verse.

But never did the OT sin offering receive God's wrath. That's what you've got to realize.

Next up, Propitiation: to make favorable by the appeasement of anger.

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

This directly relates to the OT passages I posted above (e.g. Moses, Aaron, Phinehas), where the term "make atonement" corresponds to "turn away wrath"

bling · May 23, 2013

Catholic Dude said:
Not a newsflash at all. I agree with that. The point is, how is that anger/wrath dealt with? Is it dealt with by being appeased, or is it dealt with by venting that wrath on a substitute?

As I noted earlier, the Greek here for "made sin" means "made a sin offering" as it's used in the OT. Even the language of "He who had no sin" recalls needing a sacrificial animal free of defect. The NASB and NIV in the footnote here even say "sin offering" for this verse.

But never did the OT sin offering receive God's wrath. That's what you've got to realize.

This directly relates to the OT passages I posted above (e.g. Moses, Aaron, Phinehas), where the term "make atonement" corresponds to "turn away wrath"

You did a great job of showing that Penal Substitution is not supported by scripture, but you have not given the alternative logical explanation to what happened with Christ going to the cross. There are huge problems with all the atonement theories we find in literature, so which do you subscribe to, so we can point out the weaknesses?

Catholic Dude · May 23, 2013

bling said:
You did a great job of showing that Penal Substitution is not supported by scripture, but you have not given the alternative logical explanation to what happened with Christ going to the cross. There are huge problems with all the atonement theories we find in literature, so which do you subscribe to, so we can point out the weaknesses?

The atonement view I subscribe to is laid out in the link in the main post. I subscribe to this because it's a look at how the Bible itself uses the word atonement, so I don't have to really theorize. When the Bible uses the term atonement, it's basically understood to mean a good work is done by a hero that 'makes up for' the damage done by a sinner.

Proverbs 16:6 is a good example: "By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for"

Is there any weakness in that argument?

Cappadocious · May 23, 2013

bling said:
which do you subscribe to, so we can point out the weaknesses?

You aren't helping your ethos with statements like this.

Eliwho · May 23, 2013

motherprayer said:
This! We're ALL wrong about God in some way. Sorry but it has to be said. We're ALL wrong about God in some way.

Not if we stick to what he's taught us.

When we help others learn what God has taught us is when we are obeying
Jesus and trading our goods with others.
Just because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing.
There are those leaning on their own understanding, or the false teaching of others.
Ever learning but never able to come to the truth.

Philippians 3:16 KJVA

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained , let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

LittleLambofJesus · May 23, 2013

Catholic Dude said:
Most people don't realize that there are different views of the Atonement out there. Most Protestants (not all), especially Calvinists, believe in a form of Atonement called Penal Substitution.
To understand the heart of salvation, THE CROSS, one must actually study the Bible on the matter and not blindly follow theologians:

http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/07/atonement-according-to-scripture-more.html

That is almost close to yer username "Catholic Dude"

.

prov1810 · May 23, 2013

[quote=Catholic Dude;63122597]Not a newsflash at all. I agree with that. The point is, how is that anger/wrath dealt with? Is it dealt with by being appeased, or is it dealt with by venting that wrath on a substitute?

As I noted earlier, the Greek here for "made sin" means "made a sin offering" as it's used in the OT. Even the language of "He who had no sin" recalls needing a sacrificial animal free of defect. The NASB and NIV in the footnote here even say "sin offering" for this verse.

But never did the OT sin offering receive God's wrath. That's what you've got to realize.

This directly relates to the OT passages I posted above (e.g. Moses, Aaron, Phinehas), where the term "make atonement" corresponds to "turn away wrath"[/quote]

"Offering" isn't a magic word. It doesn't disprove penal substitution if Jesus offered Himself to God's punishment.

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." (Gal. 3:13).

Hanging from the tree is execution, a form of punishment.

He was punished in our place: "He became a curse for us".

Obviously, someone did the punishing: a righteous God.

But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa. 53: 5-6)

By His stripes - flogging is punishment.

He was punished by God: "It pleased the LORD to bruise Him" (v. 10)

We are healed - our backs are spared - substituion.

Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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