Many see the Flood as a precursor of Hell fire. But neither the devil nor his angels were targets in the Flood. What was God trying to say in that cataclysmic event?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Why the Flood?
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SnowBird77 said:
The flood was intended for mankind because of their wickedness and evil.
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5stringJeff
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Peter's comments might be helpful.
2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
2PE 2:13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2PE 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
2PE 3:1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
2PE 2:13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2PE 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
2PE 3:1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
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But he did not target the source of that wickedness. That cannot be the lesson. You don't need to destroy the victim to teach that lesson.Quantos said:
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This sentence is interesting. If the evil angels are being held in gloomy dungeons then how can we claim they are bothering humans?tall73 said:
If we can deal with what that verse seems to be saying maybe we are on our way to understanding a flood that seems to me without purpose. It looks like either Peter was wrong in what he said, or we are wrong about the bad angels.
What do you think? (I am still looking at the Flood).
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SnowBird77 said:
So God should of killed Satan and the fallen angels? Would the people have been pure in their thinking and actions had Satan been taken care of by God? If God wanted to get rid of Satan then why wouldn't He had done it when Adam and Eve were in the garden?
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If a child is abducted at age 3 whose principles do you think that child will be following after living 10 years with her abductor? Do you blame the child?Quantos said:
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My point exactly. The evidence is interesting. Apparently, God is trying to avoid destroying Lucifer.£amb said:
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In Revelations we are told what God has planned for Satan. Satan will be held in a place where he cannot escape for 1000 years. God will demonstrate how beautiful the world will be without Satan. Then Satan will be released to decieve the nations again, and will be defeated totally. Then God will cast him into eternal toment.
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BalaamsAss51
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Hello Snowbird77.
The answer to your original question is straightforward. By reading Genesis 6:5-8; 6:11-13; 6:17-18; 7:1 we find that because of the wickedness of men God needed to start over building up a people for himself.
Please note that God did not wipe out mankind but preserved it. Also that this was His intention all along. What God does is not always resonable to us, but who are we to question Him?
You said that one need not destroy the victim to teach the lesson. Remember the ones destroyed in the flood were those who rejected God and even after having time to turn back to God had failed to do so. They had already refused to learn. At some point you stop hitting your head against a wall and move on. God did something like that. He moved on.
As to angels in "gloomy dungeons". First, perhaps not all the angels were in those gungeons. Perhaps what was meant by dungeons is not what we mean by them. Probably it referred to the notion that the activity and reach of demons was restricted. Rather like the limiting of Satan's activities told in Revelation.
Your child abduction theory sounds good except that even an infant is a sinful being and yes, deserving of death as we all are.
Pax
The answer to your original question is straightforward. By reading Genesis 6:5-8; 6:11-13; 6:17-18; 7:1 we find that because of the wickedness of men God needed to start over building up a people for himself.
Please note that God did not wipe out mankind but preserved it. Also that this was His intention all along. What God does is not always resonable to us, but who are we to question Him?
You said that one need not destroy the victim to teach the lesson. Remember the ones destroyed in the flood were those who rejected God and even after having time to turn back to God had failed to do so. They had already refused to learn. At some point you stop hitting your head against a wall and move on. God did something like that. He moved on.
As to angels in "gloomy dungeons". First, perhaps not all the angels were in those gungeons. Perhaps what was meant by dungeons is not what we mean by them. Probably it referred to the notion that the activity and reach of demons was restricted. Rather like the limiting of Satan's activities told in Revelation.
Your child abduction theory sounds good except that even an infant is a sinful being and yes, deserving of death as we all are.
Pax
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Isn't the obvious conclusion that Hell fire isn't just for the devil and his angels?SnowBird77 said:
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When the human race was abducted we were innocent. Completely innocent as a little child.BalaamsAss51 said:
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BalaamsAss51
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SnowBird77 said:
No. First little children are not innocent. They are sinful human beings like everyone else. Second when was the human race abducted?
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