Why the Antagonism?

[AndrewK788]

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist and was overjoyed to find a forum with other SDAs to talk with and debate certain issues. The idea of Christian fellowship is to lift one another up and guide one another in the direction of Christ.

So my question is: why does it seem to be s many people are in here for the sake of argument and the bashing of the so-called "trads." I don't consider myself traditional myself so it's not even that I agree entirely with them. But this attitude of antagonism is anything but Christlike in my estimation.

And whether or not we're right is beside the point. Jesus didn't spend his entire ministry outside the synagogue bashing the Pharisees for their bigotry and arrogance, though he wouldn't have been wrong to do so. His ministry was about love. I don't care how wrong some traditional's viewpoints may be. They will never be reached with the truth through anger and harsh words.

well, those are just my thoughts and I don't mean to personally offend anyone. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who feels this way. God bless all of you guys!

 

[tall73]

It is a history now. Both sides have so long beaten on each other that real dialogue is almost impossible.

Someone needs to take the first step.

But I still assert that detailed discussion of doctrinal points is not aggression. Just the flaming that goes along with it all too often.

 

[NightEternal]

So my question is: why does it seem to be so many people are in here for the sake of argument and the bashing of the so-called "trads."

There is nothing wrong with argument and debate. The Christian faith is built on a foundation of people who debated doctrinal and theological issues.

As for 'bashing', you will have to also charge Luther, Paul and even Jesus himself with the same thing. Whether it be the tyranny of Rome or the legalism of the Pharisees, such a mindset was met head-on with force. It has always been that way and it always will be that way.

They can dish out the bashing towards us also BTW. Want proof?

Here you go. Trads in all thier raw glory:

http://www.temcat.com/index.htm

http://www.sdadefend.com/

http://www.revivalsermons.org/

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/

I don't consider myself traditional myself so it's not even that I agree entirely with them. But this attitude of antagonism is anything but Christlike in my estimation.

If you do not agree with them, you are automatically on the wrong side in thier eyes and therefore an an enemy. At the very least, they will consider you a 'pretend' or 'false' Adventist. Join the club!

I have endured more antagonism from thier camp than you will ever know.

It was thier antagonism that banished Desmond Ford from the denomination. It was thier antagonism that has ended the careers of hundeds of Gospel-minded SDA ministers throughout the years. It is thier antagonism that demands anyone who does not think like them leave the church. It is thier antagonism which gleefully anticipates a cleansing in the church of we so-called 'tares'.

They hate us and don't want us in the church. And I'm supposed to show warm fuzzies towards them?

Um, no.

And whether or not we're right is beside the point. Jesus didn't spend his entire ministry outside the synagogue bashing the Pharisees for their bigotry and arrogance, though he wouldn't have been wrong to do so.

Oh He didn't? Do the words 'white-washed tombs' sound familiar? How about 'brood of vipers' courtesy of John? Christ even claimed thier father was the Devil!

I wonder what would happen to Paul if he would come on this board and blast the Trads like he always did? Would you admonish him to stop castigating the circumcision party and tell him to stop saying he wished the knife would slip? Let's see, Paul also called them 'dogs', 'enemies of the Gospel' and 'mutilators of the flesh'.

Not exactly politically correct or 'nice' by anyone's standards.

His ministry was about love. I don't care how wrong some traditional's viewpoints may be. They will never be reached with the truth through anger and harsh words.

When I look at the devastation they have caused on the SDA landscape and the souls they have driven out of the church I can feel nothing but anger and antagonism. To see the true salvation Gospel of Luther and the reformers and the righteousness of Christ trampled on and withheld from the membership in favor of spiritually bankrupt Doug Batchelor/Uriah Smith/Joe Crews/M.L. Andreason perfection theology is nothing short of a travesty! Yes I feel indignation at such a thing!

What sane person wouldn't?

People I personally know have left Adventism because of EGW veneration, salvation by diet and adoration of the law that spits on free grace as 'cheap' and 'sloppy agape'. Many SDA's have went into thier graves with no assurance of salvation whatsoever, spiritually brutalized by the fear-based Trad version of the IJ.

So forgive me if I don't feel the desire to hold hands and sing Kum-By-Ya around the camp-fire.

As far as 'reaching them' that has never been my goal personally. I know they will never change thier way of thinking and that they lash out anytime thier TSDA world is rocked even a little.

They cannot be reached. They have bought into the dogma and rhetoric and they like it there. It's foolishness to even try.

I leave them to thier deluded world where progress is crushed out and where the truth, all of the truth and nothing but the truth has been arrived at 100%.

Spend about 20 more years in the church my friend, and then come back and give me a report. If you are not Traditional, I garantee you will have battle scars and wounds, moreso if you are an outspoken proponent of reform.

I would be interested to know if you feel the same way then as you have outlined here. That's, of course, assuming you manage to hang in there and are even in the church anymore at that point.

 

[StormyOne]

there would be no antagonism IF those people who have been labeled progressive never questioned anything posted by those who have been labeled traditionals. Likewise there would be no antagonism IF those people labeled traditionals did not suggest that anyone who questions the beliefs held by them (the traditionals) were not "true" adventists.....

Given the history I am not sure if there will ever be "peace" in this place.... but that's just me, and I have been antagonized from the very start... of course some even believe it is my fault that I have been treated as I have.... such is life....

 

[NightEternal]

Exactly Stormy. And the scary thing is, one of our own mods (who is being trained as we speak) is of the same true/false Adventist mindset.

I have scoured the old threads and I have seen with my own eyes how you were treated. It was disgraceful. I have seen it all here. From Senti being referred to as a snake to RC being told he was a dirty Jesuit.

Myself, I've had demon, devil, Satan's minion, evil, instigator, you name it. And of course, we all have been charged with 'enjoying secret sin' and 'sinning with impunity', not to mention the way our sprituality and salvation is perpetually held in question.

Woob even had the audacity to claim none of us were even Christians!

The name calling and slander has not stopped from day one. And yet, we Progs, who 90% of the time avoid making it personal and merely attack ideas, beliefs and theology, get constantly charged with flaming, personal attacks and harassment. In contrast, Trads, who almost ALWAYS get personal, never get called on it or see any rebuke unless we dish it out.

Oooooookaaaayyyyy.

Yeah, Progs feel the love all the time here.

So, in consideration of all this past history, it's an understatement to say that having an outsider come in here and presume to lecture us on being more 'nice' to those who have behaved this way does not sit well with me.

 

[mva1985]

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist and was overjoyed to find a forum with other SDAs to talk with and debate certain issues. The idea of Christian fellowship is to lift one another up and guide one another in the direction of Christ.

So my question is: why does it seem to be s many people are in here for the sake of argument and the bashing of the so-called "trads." I don't consider myself traditional myself so it's not even that I agree entirely with them. But this attitude of antagonism is anything but Christlike in my estimation.

And whether or not we're right is beside the point. Jesus didn't spend his entire ministry outside the synagogue bashing the Pharisees for their bigotry and arrogance, though he wouldn't have been wrong to do so. His ministry was about love. I don't care how wrong some traditional's viewpoints may be. They will never be reached with the truth through anger and harsh words.

well, those are just my thoughts and I don't mean to personally offend anyone. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who feels this way. God bless all of you guys!

Andrew,

Excellent post. Welcome!

 

[StormyOne]

Andrew,

Excellent post. Welcome!

what makes his post excellent in your opinion?

 

[mva1985]

what makes his post excellent in your opinion?

I just believe he made some valid points/observations.

 

[StormyOne]

I just believe he made some valid points/observations.

you agree with his observation that those who consider themselves "traditionals" are getting bashed?

 

[mva1985]

you agree with his observation that those who consider themselves "traditionals" are getting bashed?

Stormy,

I think it goes both ways.

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy,

I think it goes both ways.

so then you don't necessarily agree that his observation is correct?

 

[AndrewK788]

so then you don't necessarily agree that his observation is correct?

well now that that's settled, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was against you guys. I don't think my observation was incorrect, because I've read posts with my own eyes, but I'll admit it was one-sided as I hadn't interacted with any traditionals at the time. Anyway, I can see it goes both ways and unfortunately it will never end.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to start any arguments. Just wondering about the divide among the SDAs on this site but now I understand. Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. Please pardon my ignorance though as I'm new to this site and this forum.

 

[mva1985]

well now that that's settled, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was against you guys. I don't think my observation was incorrect, because I've read posts with my own eyes, but I'll admit it was one-sided as I hadn't interacted with any traditionals at the time. Anyway, I can see it goes both ways and unfortunately it will never end.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to start any arguments. Just wondering about the divide among the SDAs on this site but now I understand. Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. Please pardon my ignorance though as I'm new to this site and this forum.

Andrew,

You are not starting anything. I hope you stick around and find someplace where you will be comfortable.

 

[NightEternal]

I really don't understand why some feel it is necessary to harmonize the two camps. We already have seperate churches, different worship styles, different theology being preached from the pulpits...

I am quite content to associate with my own kind of Adventists, as I really have nothing in common with the cultic, exclusive Trads who exist in thier little Adventist bubble. They are like aliens from a different planet to me.

It just does not work on a practical level. That underlying tension is always there, so true, open fellowship is not possible. We are just too different. I enjoy going out for a good steak at a restaurant, catching the latest Christian rock concert, seeing a good movie at the theater and then hanging out at Starbucks. Every single thing I just listed is poison to a true-blue Trad, so you tell me how that would would work for us on a social level.

I have found that I get on much better with Evangelicals from other faiths than the fundamentalists of my own denomination. I have very few Adventist friends in real life, and the few I do have are all liberal and open-minded.

I was also not raised Adventist, so perhaps that makes it easier to find meaningful relationships and friendships in non-SDA denominations as well as with unbelievers.

Besides, I have no desire whatsoever to associate or dialogue with people that think I am a false Adventist.

 

[Mankin]

Many of my closer friends are non Adventists. My fundie Adventist friends tend to be against most forms of rock so I can't talk about music with them. True that isn't a reason not to be close to them, but idk I just have more in common with my non SDA friends.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

When you consider what the word antagonism means it is pretty understandable.

1.an active hostility or opposition, as between unfriendly or conflicting groups: the antagonism between the liberal and the conservative parties. 2.an opposing force, principle, or tendency: Her plan to become an actress met with the antagonism of her family. 3.Physiology. an opposing action, as by one muscle in relation to another. 4.the opposing action of substances, as drugs, that when taken together decrease the effectiveness of at least one of them (contrasted with synergism).

There really is little change that opposing forces or ideas do not create tensions. As the old saying was don't discuss religion or politics, the two most important aspects of human life were once thought to be to contentious for people to even talk about.

The best we can do is attempt to disagree without being disagreeable. It can become difficult and like everything else we sometimes fail. But then what is the alternative?

 

[Sophia7]

I really don't understand why some feel it is necessary to harmonize the two camps. We already have seperate churches, different worship styles, different theology being preached from the pulpits...

I am quite content to associate with my own kind of Adventists, as I really have nothing in common with the cultic, exclusive Trads who exist in thier little Adventist bubble. They are like aliens from a different planet to me.

It just does not work on a practical level. That underlying tension is always there, so true, open fellowship is not possible. We are just too different. I enjoy going out for a good steak at a restaurant, catching the latest Christian rock concert, seeing a good movie at the theater and then hanging out at Starbucks. Every single thing I just listed is poison to a true-blue Trad, so you tell me how that would would work for us on a social level.

I have found that I get on much better with Evangelicals from other faiths than the fundamentalists of my own denomination. I have very few Adventist friends in real life, and the few I do have are all liberal and open-minded.

I was also not raised Adventist, so perhaps that makes it easier to find meaningful relationships and friendships in non-SDA denominations as well as with unbelievers.

Besides, I have no desire whatsoever to associate or dialogue with people that think I am a false Adventist.

Most of the SDA churches that I've been a member of, attended regularly, or visited were made up of people from both camps (not that there are only two in real life). In many areas, though, the traditional views are predominant, and progressives don't have the option of going to a progressive SDA church. Obviously, some individual churches are more progressive than others, but there aren't two separate denominations, and in most Adventist churches, people with different beliefs have to either learn to get along, ignore each other, constantly antagonize each other, or leave.

 

[tall73]

Night, I am not saying you have to go easy on their doctrine. But to say that you hate them is not at all to follow the commands of Scripture and love your enemies. Please reconsider.

 

[NightEternal]

Most of the SDA churches that I've been a member of, attended regularly, or visited were made up of people from both camps (not that there are only two in real life).

I can't even imagine. I have not been a part of anything but liberal Adventist churches for years. I would not survive one hour in such a setting.

Of course, a Trad would not survive for very long in a liberal church either before they would go looking for something more thier speed. The music alone would send them running for the nearest exit. I would be suprised if they would tolerate a liberal church for more than a day to be honest.

And meat at fellowship dinners!? It would be all over but the crying!

In many areas, though, the traditional views are predominant, and progressives don't have the option of going to a progressive SDA church.

Poor souls. I don't know how they survive, much less thrive, where Trads have a stranglehold on the church.

Obviously, some individual churches are more progressive than others, but there aren't two separate denominations,

Perhaps not officially, but for all practical purposes, it is fast becoming a necessity. I think the groundswell began in the aftermath of Glacierview when the Trads displayed thier true colors for all to see. The fallout has not stopped since then.

A Trad would be a minority in many areas of Australia and Southern California, make no mistake.

and in most Adventist churches, people with different beliefs have to either learn to get along, ignore each other, constantly antagonize each other, or leave.

Probably the last option is what is taking place more and more. I could not see any of the other scenarios lasting very long.

 

[NightEternal]

Night, I am not saying you have to go easy on their doctrine. But to say that you hate them is not at all to follow the commands of Scripture and love your enemies. Please reconsider.

Well, I don't know where I said such a thing.

I am all for hating the theology and keeping the individual out of it Tall. The problem is, though, that the Trads have thier identity so intertwined in thier beliefs, and have so blended thier personality, value and self-worth into thier theology and doctrine, that it poses an obvious problem in properly carrying out that principal.

So of course, it is always a personal attack to them when you go after that which they have thier whole being tied into. It becomes almost impossible to separate the two as a result.

Add to that the fact that when thier attacks on our beliefs fail, they always resort to blatantly making things personal, and you have some real problems.