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Yet you defend the Catholic Church while opining from the Bible. Just how much of Sacred Scriptures has the Catholic Church infallibly interpreted for her sheep.The issue in this thread is Sola Scriptura, not the Catholic Church.
Make a wish and remove the Catholic Church from the face of the earth, and you still won't have proven your rule of faith, sola scriptura. That's what this thread is about. Not about the Catholic Church, the Mormons, the Mooneys or Mickey Mouse. It's about Sola Scriptura.Yet you defend the Catholic Church while opining from the Bible. Just how much of Sacred Scriptures has the Catholic Church infallibly interpreted for her sheep.
Yet your original comments defended a position where the EO, OO, etc were Catholic. This has relevance because your point is if Protestants all use Sola Scriptura, then why are their beliefs different? If the EO and Roman Catholic church both hold true to the Sacred Scriptures and Church Tradition, have the same access to the Early Church Father's writings and ecumenical councils, then why are there differences in doctrines and frankly some Traditions?Correct, the Eastern Orthodox are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic. But I will not discuss this any further with you in this thread. This thread is about Sola Scriptura.
If we remove the Holy Scriptures from the face of the earth would not we remove Christianity?Make a wish and remove the Catholic Church from the face of the earth, and you still won't have proven your rule of faith, sola scriptura. That's what this thread is about. Not about the Catholic Church, the Mormons, the Mooneys or Mickey Mouse. It's about Sola Scriptura.
No your point is off-topic once more. If the question is "why are you wrong", the answer is not "because I believe someone else is wrong too". This thread is about sola scriptura, not about what else is there on the market that could be better or worse.Yet your original comments defended a position where the EO, OO, etc were Catholic. This has relevance because your point is if Protestants all use Sola Scriptura, then why are their beliefs different? If the EO and Roman Catholic church both hold true to the Sacred Scriptures and Church Tradition, have the same access to the Early Church Father's writings and ecumenical councils, then why are there differences in doctrines and frankly some Traditions?
From here on you will have to settle for a monologue, as I will no longer reply to your arguments unless they are relevant to the topic of this thread.If we remove the Holy Scriptures from the face of the earth would not we remove Christianity?
I don't think so. Here's what the Apostle Peter says:St. Peter disagrees with you in 2 Peter 3:16.
I'm on topic because I presented a dilemma (for you) in painting Sola Scriptura as something it is not. Your premise is the Roman Catholic church has not changed from Pentecost. The EOs believe that too yet they are separated from the CC.No your point is off-topic once more. If the question is "why are you wrong", the answer is not "because I believe someone else is wrong too". This thread is about sola scriptura, not about what else is there on the market that could be better or worse.
I don't think so. Here's what the Apostle Peter says:
2 Peter 3: NASB
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
For verse 16, the burden of proof is on you to show what is being distorted and who the untaught truly are. Meaning what or who was Peter, in that time period as he penned the epistle, referring to? Judaizers? False teachers? Which Protestant doctrine can you point to would apply to what Peter discusses here? Also, what were some of the things the Apostle Paul taught which were hard to understand? It seems Paul discussed in many of his epistles and in the witness of the Acts of the Apostles the false doctrines of legalists.
So we can read the Scriptures and know what they are saying. Interesting.No, I don't need to answer your questions and prove them. That is a diversion tactic I will not fall for. I simply need to read Scripture and believe what is being said here:
Peter did not say all of them. So specificity is key here. Maybe your church has an infallible interpretation of this verse?1. Paul's letters are difficult to understand.
Yes some people, but who or what was Peter referring to? Who says I cannot apply this to the Roman Catholic church?2. Some people twist Paul's letters and the rest of Scripture.
Yes, which would be anyone or any group who deviated from Apostolic teachings.3. Who is doing that? The unlearned and unstable.
What would cause this destruction? A deviation from the Gospel preached by the Apostles? See Acts of the Apostles chapter 15 where Peter, Paul and Barnabas defend the Gospel of Grace.4. What will be the result? Their own destruction.
I don't disagree with the Apostle Peter. He was quite clear at the Jerusalem council.If you disagree with St. Peter, please tell me why.
Let's test that. You have the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) right? How many pro-abortion and pro-gay 'marriage', and pro-contraceptive bishops, priests and laymen do you have in the Catholic church? I mean the CCC is clear on Life and Marriage, yet those still in communion with the CC are not following the CCC and still getting the Eucharist. Does this mean the CCC is in error, or the people trying to put their own ideas into it or just rejecting it.And if want to argue that this scripture is compatible with sola scriptura, you need to show me how the unlearned and unstable can use your rule of faith and avoid their own destruction.
From here on you will have to settle for a monologue, as I will no longer reply to your arguments unless they are relevant to the topic of this thread.
Hi all wanted to update this one to show that faith in God's Word alone is the sole source of eternal life.
Those who seek to tear it down do so at their own peril. In it is the light of life and without it there is only darnkess. Those who do not come to the light (the Word) do not come lest their evil deeds are exposed. This is the reason many seek to put out the light. It is a lamp and a light to our path and without it we cannot find our way to JESUS.
Let's share the scriptures...
PSLAMS 27:1 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
PSLAMS 36:9 For with you is the fountain of life: in your light shall we see light.
PSLAMS 43:3 O send out your light and your truth: let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill, and to your tabernacles.
PSLAMS 119:105 YOUR WORD IS A LAMP UNTO MY FEET AND A LIGHT UNTO MY PATH.
PSALMS 119:130 THE ENTRANCE OF YOUR WORDS GIVES LIGHT; IT GIVES UNDERSTANDING TO THE SIMPLE
PROVERBS 6:23 FOR THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP AND THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
ISAIAH 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM
JOHN 1:1-4; 14 [1], In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. [2], The same was in the beginning with God. [3], All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4], In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5], And THE LIGHT (Word) SHINES IN DARKNESS; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[14] AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMOUNG US and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
JOHN 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT (the Word) IS COME INTO THE WORLD, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT (the Word), because their deeds were evil. FOR EVERYONE THAT DOES EVIL HATES THE LIGHT (the Word), neither comes to the LIGHT (the Word), lest his deeds should be reproved. BUT HE THAT DOES TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT (the Word), that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.
JOHN 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD (The Word see JOHN 1:1-4; 14): he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 [16], ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD (God breathed) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. [17], That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.
2 TIMOTHY 2:15 STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED TO GOD, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.
JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I HAVE SAID TO YOU.
JOHN 16:13 [13], However, WHEN HE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS COME HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
JOHN 17:17 SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THE TRUTH THY WORD IS TRUTH
JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD THEN YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES INDEED AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE
EPHESIANS 2:8 [8], FOR BY GRAECE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (links to)
ROMANS 10:17 FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD
..................
According to the scriptures God's salvation only comes by faith in God's WORD. If there is no Word there is no faith and if there is no faith there is no salvation to those who reject God's Words. There is no righteousness without faith as there is no faith without Gods' Word. BEWARE of those who seek to teach you contrary to the scriptures.
What are your thoughts?
ACTS 17:11 [11], These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
FRIENDLY DISCUSSION PLEASE (no flamming and goading)
God bless.
Interesting wording...@GodsGrace101,
If I understand you correctly, the argument you have been making and others have been dodging is about the difference between the material and the formal sufficiency of Scripture. We all agree that Scripture is materially sufficient, but you have noticed rightly that it is not formally sufficient.
Take a Swiss watch, disassemble it, put all pieces in a pile and ask someone what it is. Most likely they will not know, even though all the pieces that a Switch watch is made of are there. Tell him it is a Swiss watch, but he still won't be able to use it to tell the time. Only when someone puts all the pieces together will we be able to use the watch. Material sufficiency means "all the pieces [material] are there", formal sufficiency means "all the pieces are placed together in the right order [form] for anyone to use correctly."Interesting wording...
but I'm not familiar with it.
Scripture is materially sufficient...
IOW, it has all we need to know to achieve salvation.
Formally sufficient.
IOW, HOW is that transferred to a person's day to day life? Or HOW do we apply this knowledge?
Please clarify.
For instance,,,we all know we are to be baptized...
but WHO, HOW, WHY, WHEN?
You mention form and material. I understand you now.Take a Swiss watch, disassemble it, put all pieces in a pile and ask someone what it is. Most likely they will not know, even though all the pieces that a Switch watch is made of are there. Tell him it is a Swiss watch, but he still won't be able to use it to tell the time. Only when someone puts all the pieces together will we be able to use the watch. Material sufficiency means "all the pieces [material] are there", formal sufficiency means "all the pieces are placed together in the right order [form] for anyone to use correctly."
As for your example, baptism. If "baptism now saves" (1 Peter 3:21), does that mean that infants need to be baptised? Take a poll among Protestants and you will find both answers, some say yes, some say no. The truth can only be one of them.
Both Catholics and Protestants believe in the material sufficiency of the Bible. "It's all there".
Only Protestants believe in the formal sufficiency of the Bible, but they cannot prove it. They say the Bible is sufficiently clear, but their doctrinal divisions prove otherwise. To get around that they have to reduce what the Bible teaches to "some things are essential, some things are optional", but even then they cannot agree on what are the essentials because the Bible does not say this.
Catholics believe there is something else we need to understand the Bible, which they have, and thus they are one in doctrine. Anyone who with full knowledge and consent rejects one article of faith rejects them all and cannot be saved, just like someone who takes one essential part out of a Swiss watch will break it and can no longer tell the time. Only Catholics accept ALL the pieces of the Swiss watch.
You say that only Catholics accept all the pieces of the watch -- all the doctrine. You must surely know that not all Catholics accept every single doctrine,,,although they're supposed to. I hope you know what a priest would tell you about this problem....they know very well that not all accept every doctrine. They do not believe that person would be lost...this is something that is believed only by the congregation.
The problem, as I see it, is that the CC has added and changed some of the early doctrine (teachings) of the church. I'm rather sorry this happened because in the beginning the church was good and pure and did its best to follow Jesus' teachings.
So, I believe that Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone agrees on everything (which even priests do not), but it means that the AUTHORITY by which we are to live and be Christian must come ONLY from the bible.
Do you agree that the church has changed many early teachings?
Now the proof the traditions by word were not written down sometime in the lives of the Apostles. Or better, where do we now find these oral traditions.Check out this verse everyone. Something to think about :
Therefore, Brethren, Stand Fast And Hold The Traditions Which You Were Taught,
Whether By Word OR Our Epistle.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:15
.
For instance,,,we all know we are to be baptized...
but WHO, HOW, WHY, WHEN?
Must say good night.When you say that "not all Catholics accept every single doctrine", I agree in the sense that not all Catholics know (and therefore accept) what the Church teaches. In fact, the vast majority of Catholics today are utterly ignorant of even the most basic teachings of the Church, which is one of the main reasons some decide to leave the Church. We call these Catholics in error. And unless their ignorance is invincible (they cannot help it) it is a sin, but this sin may or may not be grave enough for these Catholics to lose their soul.
But if or when a Catholic knows what the Church teaches with authority and then refuses to accept it, he is no longer a Catholic but has become a heretic. A heretic is therefore one who chooses his own opinion over the opinion of a higher authority. Many heretics refuse to admit their heresy and remain within the buildings of their congregation, claiming to still be Catholic, but they are not. Heresy is a "sin unto death" as St. Paul calls it, and formal heretics cannot save their souls unless before their death they repent and rejoin the Catholic Church.
What makes things even worse is when these Catholics in error or in heresy assume high positions within the Church and teach others their errors and/or heresies. A good example of this is the Arian crisis. They may teach in the name of the Church, like false prophets claim to speak for God, but they are what Our Lord calls "false shepherds" and "wolves in sheep clothing".
So yes, in today's world, there are many who claim to be Catholic, but they are either in error (through ignorance) or in heresy. And this is a great scandal and stumbling block to good Catholics trying to keep and defend the truth, and to non-Catholics in trying to find the truth.
The Church has never changed a doctrine that she declared to be of faith. What has happened, and what still can happen today, is that some doctrines were never taught explicitly, even though they were taught, accepted and handed on implicitly. When at some point a controversy arises, the Church then steps in, considers the matter carefully and decides what is, and has always been, the correct teaching. She then makes this teaching explicit, whereas before it was implicit. When such a declaration is made, the matter is closed and all Catholics must accept the Church's ruling on it, not because she made up a new doctrine, but because she explicated what the doctrine had always been. If then they refuse to reject the Church's teaching on this matter they become heretics.
We already see an example of this in Scripture when Paul stood Peter to the face. But in the end, it was Peter who spoke last and the matter was closed.
So, the way the Church decides what has always been believed and what is therefore the truth is by examining both Scripture and Tradition, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Our Lord told us He would send for that purpose, and which Our Lord promised would remain with us until the end of time.
By the way, many Protestants have joined the Catholic Church after reading the Early Church Fathers. They saw for themselves how Catholic these early Christians really were, and how utterly foreign the doctrines of Protestantism are to what the early Christians believed and practised.
The error in that statement is the word "only", or "sola". When Jesus walked the earth, was He the only authority or was it Scripture? They both were the final authority, but neither of them was the only authority.
No. The Church has changed many customs or traditions (with a lowercase), because Christ gave Her the authority to "bind and loose". But She has never changed teachings that She had already declared as binding. Men in the Church have often debated and opined about doctrine. But once the Church has authoritatively decided which doctrine is to be held as the correct doctrine, She has NEVER gone back on this. If you believe otherwise, give me one example. But maybe not in this thread, as it is about sola scriptura, not about the Catholic Church.
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