WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
There is no fully viable system other than the one I've proposed. This means that God has to intervene in such a way to make it work. For example, He probably won't let the devil give me 100% certainty, as such could cause confusion. But even if He did, on my side it doesn't matter because God will STILL judge me on my fidelity to the maxim.

But what is God is intervening through the friend's warning and the bloke went over the cliff to his death?

It is like the block on the roof of his house during a major flood, being absolutely certain that God will save him. Along comes a helicopter and the people in it offer him a rope, but he refuses, telling them that he is absolutely certain that God will rescue him. Then along comes a man in a rowboat and offers him a ride, but he refuses again, saying that God will rescue him. Then the flood reaches the roof of his house and a guy in a lifejacket swims up and says, "Hold on to me and we will both get to dry land" , but he refuses saying, "I am absolutely certain that God will do a miracle to rescue me because He gave me a revelation". Then he drowns, and gets to heaven, and asks the Lord, "Why did you not rescue me?" And God replies to him, "Well, I sent a helicopter, a rowboat and a man in a lifejacket, but you refused all three, so what else did you expect me to do?"

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
Are you trying to tell me that you FAULT this guy for behaving according to 100% certainty?

Let me ask you a question. Do you pull out your birth certificate every day to check your name? Make sure you have it right? I mean, it could be that you're in a state of confusion from Alzheimer's and not realizing it.

No, you don't, because the nature of 100% certainty is that IT WON'T LET YOU consider such possibilities. So in your example, you're asking the impossible:
(1) You're saying this guy had ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that he was safe - and that even the friend who warned him didn't diminish that certainty
(2) And then you're implying that he SHOULD have heeded the warning, contrary to his certainty.

You don't see the contradiction in your proposal?

What I am saying is that personal absolute certainty about something without a way of testing it externally, is one of the most unreliable indications of determining truth from error.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
But what is God is intervening through the friend's warning and the bloke went over the cliff to his death?

Direct Revelation, as always, has the solution. If God had WANTED to speak through the friend, then, when the friend spoke, the Spirit should have convicted (both of them), causing:
(1) the friend to feel certain of hearing God
(2) causing me to feel certain that the friend was speaking on God's behalf.

This system works in all situations. As long as there is an abundant flow of Direct Revelation advising us in all our scenarios, we are in good shape.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
What I am saying is that personal absolute certainty about something without a way of testing it externally, is one of the most unreliable indications of determining truth from error.

And I'm saying;
(1) That doesn't make sense. No one is going to test something he's fully certain of. Do you, or don't you, check your birth certificate every 5 minutes?
(2) God cannot fault me for acting according to 100% certainty. On the contrary, He can only fault me for acting contrary to it, per the maxim.

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
The middle finger? That's your big worry? That's your concern? (Sigh). We've been over this. Abraham felt certain that he was supposed to kill his son. Isn't that more serious than the middle finger? Moses and Joshua felt certain they were supposed to slaughter 7 nations to lay hold of Canaan. Isn't that more serious than the middle finger?

If the Voice can be trusted in the big things, why not in the little things?

We are not Moses or Joshua either. It would be arrogant of us to assume that we are of the same calibre or have the same type of special calling that these men had.

A pastor friend of mine encountered a random guy coming into his church during a morning service, going around different members of the congregation giving them personal prophecies. My friend felt that he was out of line, so he went to him and asked him to cease. The guy refused, saying, "God has sent me here to give revelations to the members of your church that He has chosen". My pastor friend told him that God has now told him to ask the very nice but large usher to gently escort him from the premises. When the guy saw the very large shape of the usher advancing toward him, he said, "God has told me to leave the meeting now!" And he made a very quick retreat out the door, never to be seen again!

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

So for example if Abraham had disobeyed the voice - if he not tried to kill his son - God would be right to punish him, for acting contrary to certainty.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
We are not Moses or Joshua either. It would be arrogant of us to assume that we are of the same calibre or have the same type of special calling that these men had.

Um...The Voice had to speak to the whole nation. Moses and Joshua weren't the only 2 soldiers in the army.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
A pastor friend of mine encountered a random guy coming into his church during a morning service, going around different members of the congregation giving them personal prophecies. My friend felt that he was out of line, so he went to him and asked him to cease. The guy refused, saying, "God has sent me here to give revelations to the members of your church that He has chosen". My pastor friend told him that God has now told him to ask the very nice but large usher to gently escort him from the premises. When the guy saw the very large shape of the usher advancing toward him, he said, "God has told me to leave the meeting now!" And he made a very quick retreat out the door, never to be seen again!

Funny story. And?

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
So for example if Abraham had disobeyed the voice - if he not tried to kill his son - God would be right to punish him, for acting contrary to certainty.

In my many years of being a member and subsequent association of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and ministries, I have seen the harm done by self-appointed, unteachable blokes deceiving vulnerable people with false "words" and teaching. The most solid, dependable shepherds whose ministries I have sat under have been men mighty in the Scriptures and men of prayer. A prominent Bible teacher stated that a pastor who doesn't spend at least 2 hours in prayer each day is not worth listening to. No matter how absolutely certain a bloke is about his "revelations", if he is not mighty in the Scriptures, and spends less than two hours a day in prayer, his revelations are not worth a tin of rotten fish.

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
Funny story. And?

The random guy had absolute certainty about his "revelations" and because of this felt he had the right to come into a church meeting and prophesy to people without checking with the pastor first. I wouldn't have been as kind to the guy as my friend was. I would have been like Billy Sunday, and planted my boot fair up his proverbial and propelled him out the door right quick!

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
Um...The Voice had to speak to the whole nation. Moses and Joshua weren't the only 2 soldiers in the army.

Well, you can have your revelations and have absolute certainty about them, but don't be surprised if they are not accepted by others who actually search the Scriptures and find that you are in error.

In my experience, those who claim to have special revelations from God with absolute certainty are unteachable and are usually not accepted, and if they do become a leader of a group, it is not long before the group develops false and wacky doctrines that take the church out of the mainstream.

In my many years, I've seen them, and once you've seen one, you've seen them all!

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
Well, you can have your revelations and have absolute certainty about them, but don't be surprised if they are not accepted by others who actually search the Scriptures and find that you are in error.

In my experience, those who claim to have special revelations from God with absolute certainty are unteachable and are usually not accepted, and if they do become a leader of a group, it is not long before the group develops false and wacky doctrines that take the church out of the mainstream.

In my many years, I've seen them, and once you've seen one, you've seen them all!

Again, it doesn't matter whether my theory is right. We don't have a choice but to use it. Meaning, with 100 billion souls at stake, we MUST seek infallible Direct Revelation, to the goal of feeling 100% certain that we are evangelizing correctly. Anything else is theologically irresponsible.

And knowing that such is our only REASONABLE option, God has no choice but to support it.

And think about it. Right now, with your thinking, God's hands are tied on how to guide you ! Suppose He wants you to go to university-A. Based on your fallible undesrtadning of Scripture, you'll likely goto university-B.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
The random guy had absolute certainty about his "revelations" and because of this felt he had the right to come into a church meeting and prophesy to people without checking with the pastor first. I wouldn't have been as kind to the guy as my friend was. I would have been like Billy Sunday, and planted my boot fair up his proverbial and propelled him out the door right quick!

I'm so annoyed with how you keep insisting that anyone who claims to have 100% certainty does, in fact, have 100% certainty. I've mentioned this before.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Personally I don't believe that 100% certainty - in the strictest - can be acheived without supernatural aid. Let's be clear on that.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
Well, you can have your revelations and have absolute certainty about them, but don't be surprised if they are not accepted by others who actually search the Scriptures and find that you are in error.

In my experience, those who claim to have special revelations from God with absolute certainty are unteachable and are usually not accepted, and if they do become a leader of a group, it is not long before the group develops false and wacky doctrines that take the church out of the mainstream.

In my many years, I've seen them, and once you've seen one, you've seen them all!

What is your goal, by the way? Uncertainty? When you try to use Scripture as a test, do you take yourself to have succeeded when you've reached a state of uncertainty?

When you pray to God for illumination on a topic, do you take yourself to have succeeded when you've reached a state of uncertainty?

I don't think you're making any sense.

Again, if you have a system that doesn't make sense, here's a novel idea - switch to one that does.

YouAreAwesome · Apr 23, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
There is nothing slippery. The OP is already victory for the thread that your friend refuses to address. As well as much more of the scriptures shared within the thread.

God's Word teaches....

1 CORINTHAINS 10:11 NOW ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED TO THEM FOR EXAMPLES; AND THE ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, UPON WHOM THE END OF THE WORLD HAS COME.

The bible is the Word of God. ALL SCRIPTURE given by inspiration of God *2 TIMOTHY 3:16.

Are you trying to agrue now that the new testament is not scripture inspired by God?

Yes I believe God's Word is both the old and new testament scriptures and ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD.

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Do you know what that means? If you do how do you think it relates to the question you asked?

I believe Gods' Word how about you dear friend?

It's this simple, show me one place in the whole bible where "The Word of God" literally means the Bible as it is compiled today. Remember, this part of the conversation began with a simple True/False question which you haven't responded to, but instead, ask all these questions back at me. I gave you the courtesy of answering your last question three times over until you were satisfied. But you do not share with me the same courtesy. I find this rude and feel like I'm not debating with someone but being preached at. There is a big difference between debating and preaching at each other.

YouAreAwesome · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
It comes right back to having the written Scriptures as the only reliable foundation for testing whether a prophecy or a revelation is from God or not. The written Scriptures are the only reliable source that records exactly who God is and what His plans and purposes are for mankind. If we never had those Scriptures, we wouldn't know that there is the living God, Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles. We wouldn't know how the Christian church was born and developed, and we wouldn't know that Jesus Christ is going to return one day.

If we don't have the written Scriptures as our foundation for the truth, then there is none, and people can say whatever they like as from God, and there is no way we can test it to determine whether it is the truth or not.

A prophet can say, "I have a revelation that man never went to the moon at all, but it was all done in a specially designed movie studio". We can't know whether he is right or wrong if he is adamant that he feels very certain about it. Actually there are some who are setting out to prove just that and are very convincing about their conspiracy theory.

Another prophet can get a revelation to say that an alien inspired Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate JFK in Dallas, and he is very certain that it was God who told him. How are we going to test whether he is telling the truth or not.

Still another prophet can say, "God told me that UFOs are real and they are signs of the Second Coming of Christ". Who is there who can say he is not telling the truth?

But how do you get around the fact that our personal interpretation of the bible could hinder the Spirit?

Paul James · Apr 23, 2020

JAL said:
I'm so annoyed with how you keep insisting that anyone who claims to have 100% certainty does, in fact, have 100% certainty. I've mentioned this before.

As you have now guessed. I am pretty single-minded about keeping to the absolute authority of Scripture as everything that God has said to mankind, and, according to Proverbs 30:6-7, anyone who tries to add to what has already been written will earn a rebuke from the Lord and exposed as a liar.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

Paul James said:
As you have now guessed. I am pretty single-minded about keeping to the absolute authority of Scripture as everything that God has said to mankind, and, according to Proverbs 30:6-7, anyone who tries to add to what has already been written will earn a rebuke from the Lord and exposed as a liar.

Ok so if all these people are liars, this means they are NOT absolutely certain, they are just CLAIMING to be certain.

And yet you fought me on that point, insisting that they ARE absolutely certain. And most of your objections to me were based on that assumption. Here again we've reached a point where you seem to be invalidating your previous statements.

JAL · Apr 23, 2020

And you did that other thing again - you anwered a question other than the one I asked you. I asked if your goal was certainty or uncertainty.

WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

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